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X10/S Battery availability for a project

13FColt

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Hello,
Firstly, big thanks to Aloft for the X10S and R9M I purchased recently. As always, great service. Now I have 2!
Being a tinkerer at heart, and completely unable to leave well enough alone, I've decided my X10S needs more battery. Currently, I'm building up a set with Sony vtc5 cells just waiting on my connector assortment to arrive from amazon.
Alternately, building a Y cable for factory packs would be great as it would include the temp protection. Which I'm not sure about what's going on there as I haven't yet got the nerve to take apart one of my factory packs. Thermister? I'm sure it's something I can source on mouser once I know what it is and include it in the packs I'm building.
Hopefully, this will allow me to run the R9M without an external pack stuck to the back.

Anyway, this is as far as I've come with my project.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3012071

Edit to update.
A bit of late night research and I found pics of a disassembled pack on rcgroups. The frsky packs use a dlx-2s3907 charge/discharge protection board. Searching the part number shows equivalent boards readily available. DIY packs should be possible now.
 
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Wayne

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LOL - We actually fully developed a dual pack for the X10. We went a little different direction than you have, but the end result is about the same. We ran into issues when trying to source custom made packs. They failed our testing, the cells were not very good. Then something really simple was discovered during this phase of our project. You can simply charge another pack into the charge port of the X10 and continue flying if you like. There is some info on this on RC Groups.

We debated going down that path, but have decided to pass at this time. The X10 charge port measures about 3.97mm OD with a center pin of 1.55mm. This might help your project along if you decide to go this way.

Another option we considered was just a higher capacity 2 cell battery. But the expense of the custom packs was a more than we thought it should be, so we have put a hold on that one also.

If sourcing cells, avoid the Chinese cells, they are not very good. The price may be tempting, but we found the performance very lacking. In talking with other businesses that also use these cells, we found them asking if we found a decent source for good cells. LOL It is a bit of a mess out there right now as so many markets are trying to use these cells right now. It is kind of the wild west of battery cells. We have had the same issues trying to find decent 18500 cells for the Xlite radios, luckily there is less interest in this size, so not as much garbage getting pumped out.

-Wayne
 

13FColt

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Interesting indeed. Shortly after I first got an X10, I was surprised something wasn't already on the market, and if it was that I'd find it here lol. I had just assumed that it would be a natural thing, like with any other Tx. The more I dig into this little project, the more I understand why. The internal space really doesn't allow for it, mostly because that little button at the bottom next to the sd card.
I did come across a 2s pack on an EU rc site that used higher capacity cells, but don't see the point in paying that much for a 400mah gain. So my next thought was double up. So far, that is working.

Anyway, I'm going to continue on with it and see what I can do. I'll be trying diy packs as soon as the protection boards arrive.
 

Wayne

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We can source the protection boards from FrSky if needed. That is what we were going to do as there are many that look the same, but with different specs, etc. Our battery supplier we tried was not able to find the same boards, LOL. Then again, they were not very good outfit it turned out..

We had played with a few different options, and considered a number of different cell sizes, etc. You are right, that button really does get in the way. Here is our final solution:
x10 battery - 1.jpg

We spent a lot of time developing this over. It hurts to walk away from it. As you can see we ended up with a little more complex solution as we replaced the USB mount and incorporated it into our new battery tray. The battery is shifted off to one side, but we had a lot of customers hold the radio and no one noticed a balance concern. I thought the radio was kind of heavy, but it still weighs less then an X12S and customers liked the weight. LOL We may pick up this project in the future. It really just came down to the battery packs.

We were going to offer 2 versions of battery upgrades, the simple one was just a higher capacity battery that fit the stock clip. And then this 4 cell battery with higher capacity cells. I forget what the uptime was going to jump too, but it was significant. Opps, just checked the notes, the tested numbers on our sample packs would supply 12 hours of radio on time. These tested packs did not test out to the claimed numbers for the cells.

What do you think, should we pursue this a bit more? We just need to find a better battery supplier at this point.
 

13FColt

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OH WOW. I'm all about the diy thing, but I wouldn't trust that pack.

It is so interesting to see how these things develop. Same limited space, same limited options, same goal, only so many ways to cram too many batteries in there.
Honestly Wayne, if your solution was already for sale on the site, Id have ordered it with my X10S. Oh the time I spent measuring, printing, cussing, re-measuring, just to get that stinking USB board to lineup right. I even looked into printing a separate mount for it, instead of leaving it a part of the battery tray.
So how much are those Frsky protection boards going for?

It's way past my bedtime.
 

Wayne

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Sweet write up. Funny they came up with the same basic setup as we locked into. Not too many options..
 

dang

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OH WOW. I'm all about the diy thing, but I wouldn't trust that pack.

It is so interesting to see how these things develop. Same limited space, same limited options, same goal, only so many ways to cram too many batteries in there.
Honestly Wayne, if your solution was already for sale on the site, Id have ordered it with my X10S. Oh the time I spent measuring, printing, cussing, re-measuring, just to get that stinking USB board to lineup right. I even looked into printing a separate mount for it, instead of leaving it a part of the battery tray.
So how much are those Frsky protection boards going for?

It's way past my bedtime.
Well I for one, thank you for all that time spent. I printed your rig in nice ABS+ and sourced some known good 3500 cells. I am still getting my head around the protection boards. I am familiar with BMS stuff but this seems to be simpler. So 2 boards will give a measure of redundancy right? If one cell goes down that pack goes offline. One board for 4 cells means...uh..I guess the whole shebang goes down but there would be less chance of the board seeing a bad cell because they would bootstrap each other.

I am generally OK with stock battery life but now that I am using R9M I would like some more.

Dan

Did you get the boards from Amazon? I am eyeing those. over $15 each is kind of a drag.
 

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13FColt

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That's a really nice finish on that ABS. I moved over to nylon from ABS a few months ago I find it a more forgiving with bed adhesion as it lets me use the same glue stick that I use for PLA. I like ABS and the finished product it produces, but kapton tape and juice was pain.
As far a the protection boards go, If you are referring to the boards on amazon I'm thinking of, I found them at battery junction for a lot less. Just google tenergy 32005. These will need the thermistors soldered on and I haven't had a chance to ohm out the frsky thermistors to know what to order.
You can use one for all 4 cells, but only one pack would have thermal protection. That may or may not be a concern when charging as it won't cut off until the heat got to the thermistor in the other pack.
I still don't have mine yet, or they might be in the mailbox. I've been busy with 80hr weeks lately. I really need to get out and fly something.
 

Wayne

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I think we can source the BMS from FrSky pretty darn cheap with the thermistor.

I think the built battery pack you found in the EU has no BMS. Jan, the designer of that product knows his stuff, and he thinks it should be safe when used with the stock charger. I stayed away from it as I do not need the added liability.

-Wayne
 

dang

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Count me in for 4 of them too Wayne. I have a couple non stock units coming from afar. We'll see how I feel about them.

I'm checking the battery junction jobbies out. Good catch.

Nylon! I gotta try it. I get such good results with ABS+ I've lazy about trying others. I use hairspray on glass. Good adhesion and easy water clean-up. I need to give you props on thingiverse, lazy about that too.
 

13FColt

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Transitioning from A&P to UAS tech, so I finally have some off time to tinker again.
Had these little guys waiting for me.
bmstenergy.jpg
Hopefully I'll have a test pack soldered up later today. I didn't find the thermistors I ordered in the mail, so still waiting on those. All the info I could find about them points toward standard 10k so I may just try using my printer spares and see what happens.

My favorite Nylon is carbonX from 3dxtech. Bit pricey but the strength and finish is just amazing. I run a tungsten nozzle for it and so far the only downside is that nylon doesn't bridge well at all, requiring higher infill settings.
 

dang

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Transitioning from A&P to UAS tech, so I finally have some off time to tinker again.
Had these little guys waiting for me.
View attachment 809
Hopefully I'll have a test pack soldered up later today. I didn't find the thermistors I ordered in the mail, so still waiting on those. All the info I could find about them points toward standard 10k so I may just try using my printer spares and see what happens.

My favorite Nylon is carbonX from 3dxtech. Bit pricey but the strength and finish is just amazing. I run a tungsten nozzle for it and so far the only downside is that nylon doesn't bridge well at all, requiring higher infill settings.

Whoa! I ordered 2 of the Battery Junction units and this is what I got. 2 sheets of 10!! Anyone who needs some I can send them CONUS easily.

Sorry I don't participate in a more timely manner but I don't get notifications. I'm not going to worry about the thermistor. I've abused many 18650s without them.
Dan
 

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dang

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I'm realizing they sent these in error after revisiting the product description. I'd better not give any away until I contact them.
 

Wayne

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If they are in China, they will not want them back, shipping is too high.
 

dang

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You were right Wayne. If anyone wants to build experimental packs I can hook you up for a nod and a smile.
 

F3Phil

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What do you think, should we pursue this a bit more? We just need to find a better battery supplier at this point.

I would be very happy to buy a 4 cell version from you. My X10s does last about 4-5 hours - not enough for a full day on a slope...
 

dang

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Thank you so much for the cool tray design 13FColt!! 7000mah. It added 103 grams. You can really feel it. I don't care. I am really psyched to be able to do a 3 day slope weekend on a charge. F3K guys might not like the weight but I use the X9D+ for that.
 

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13FColt

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Glad to see it's working out for you. New job has me on the road like crazy so I haven't had the chance to really get out and enjoy it myself. Eventually I'll have my X10S doubled up. I have my X10 set up with a dual pack as it's my testing tx for anything experimental. So far It's been able to charge and function just fine. I'm becoming convinced now that the thermistors aren't absolutely necessary, just nice to have.
 
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