Who and/or what is FrSky and her branding and marketing schemes.

[Konrad]

As an engineer I have to admit I don't understand branding or marketing. I'd like to understand why FrSky differentiates their product line as they do.

My understanding is that FrSky is an electrical and plastics manufacturing house.

Early on they where the OEM to firms like Hobby King under the name Free Sky*. Later they entered the RC RF market with their own in-house Taranis TX hardware under the name FrSky. They chose to run the forward looking open sourced OpenTX on this low cost TX. (It is way too powerful a radio to be thought of as entry level radio)

A few years later they had a change in funding and wanted to enter the higher end RC Market. They introduced the Horus brand to separate the entry and mid level Taranis. This Horus brand had higher quality electrical components and for the first time an operating system fully under the control of FrSky's engineering. With the Horus radio FrSky had full control of the whole product, hardware, software, and distribution. But the Horus radio brand appears to have been a failure in the market place. (FOS wasn't well received). The Horus brand still lives on in their attempt at direct sales with their site Horusrc.com.

FrSky has re-evaluated the failure of the Horus radio and from the lessons learned has introduced the Tandem radio running their own proprietary TX operating system Ethos. Again FrSky has full control of the Tandem/Ethos product.

And then there is the FrSky brand, Vantec. This appears to be a brand where FrSky manufactures and rebrands products that they don't have any engineering control over. This would be products like the Open Sourced MPM, ELRS and toys. I assume Vantec insulates FrSky from brand contamination/dilution and liabilities should these products outside of FrSky's engineering control fail.

So, I'd like to learn from somebody with intimate knowledge, what am I looking at when I look at the FrSky product line and branding.

All the best,
Konrad

*My understanding was that this name change was driven by a legal challenge and was not a marketing/rebranding attempt.

P.S.
I posted this here as I think this might be of general interest rather than use the Aloft contact us feature.
Back to your regular scheduled programing

 

[MikeB]

FrSky were using the name FrSky in 2010 (when I bought a V8FT Tx module and receiver). They brought out the DJT (and DFT) module soon after, I got one in 2011.
When they started on the Taranis, they had already planned for the Horus, both names were in use at the time.
The Taranis also had erskyTx available for it, not only openTx.
The Horus (X12) also had openTx and erskyTx available for it, not just FrOS.
I have a version of erskyTx running on the Tandem X20, not quite complete, but it won't be restricted only to ETHOS.

Mike

 

[HENNY]

As an engineer I have to admit I don't understand branding or marketing. I'd like to understand why FrSky differentiates their product line as they do.

My understanding is that FrSky in an electrical and plastics manufacturing house.

Early on they where the OEM to firms like Hobby King under the name Free Sky*. Later they entered the RC RF market with their own in-house Taranis TX hardware under the name FrSky. They chose to run the forward looking open sourced OpenTX on this low cost TX. (It is way too powerful a radio to be thought of as entry level radio)

A few years later they had a change is funding and wanted to enter the higher end RC Market. They introduced the Horus brand to separate the entry and mid level Taranis. This Horus brand had higher quality electrical components and for the first time an operating system fully under the control of FrSky's engineering. With the Horus radio FrSky had full control of the whole product, hardware, software, and distribution. But the Horus radio brand appears to have been a failure in the market place. (FOS wasn't well received). The Horus brand still lives on in their attempt at direct sales with their site Horusrc.com.

FrSky has re-evaluated the failure of the Horus radio and from the lessons learned has introduced the Tandem radio running their own proprietary TX operating system Ethos. Again FrSky has full control of the Tandem/Ethos product.

And then there is the FrSky brand, Vantec. This appears to be a brand where FrSky manufactures and rebrands products that they don't have any engineering control over. This would be products like the Open Sourced MPM, ELRS and toys. I assume Vantec insulates FrSky from brand contamination/dilution and liabilities should these products outside of FrSky's engineering control fail.

So, I'd like to learn from somebody with intimate knowledge, what am I looking at when I look at the FrSky product line and branding.

All the best,
Konrad

*My understanding was that this name change was driven by a legal challenge and was not a marketing/rebranding attempt.

P.S.
I posted this here as I think this might be of general interest rather than use the Aloft contact us feature.
Back to your regular scheduled programing

Konrad. Glad to have you back. However, you are again entering into your interpretation of FRsky history. Suggestion, keep well clear of this topic or it will again lead to tears.
I love your glider and other interesting RC plane history.

 

[Konrad]

Thank you Mike,

I've been a FrSky user since 2014. I was ecstatic to learn of OpenTX after the demise in the USA of the Multiplex Profi 4000mc. I'm of the understanding that you are the driving force for bringing this object (output) based mixing program back. I never made friends with the master/slave mixing philosophy of the "asian radios" from the 80's and 90's.

I've converted many an old 72mHz radio using FrSky and XPS modules. Yes, I made a mistake or two and converted a few using Spektrum and Hobby King Orange modules.

I'm not aware that the ersky made any head way in the market place. I've never seen a radio running this OS.

All the best,
Konrad

 

[Konrad]

Konrad. Glad to have you back. However, you are again entering into your interpretation of FRsky history. Suggestion, keep well clear of this topic or it will again lead to tears.
I love your glider and other interesting RC plane history.

What?

I clearly state that this is "MY understanding". This is based on my observation of FrSky from the sidelines over the last 7 or so years. I clearly want to learn why FrSky has done what she has done, and why we have these branding/marketing scheme. (I hope this will help me in my future purchases).

Please if you have detailed intimate knowable of FrSky's marketing schemes please post. I for one don't understand why all the branding and what to me looks like marketing insulation of risk. As to history again please correct my recollection of what happened. Again I freely state that I don't have the comprehensive understanding of the, what why and when.

True, I have no love of FrSky nor I'm I an apologist for FrSky. I like what FrSky offered in the way of the Taranis running OpenTX and how it has opened up (shaken) the master/slave OS's that predated it.

You and I may disagree as to the value and market influence of the Horus radio and that is fine.

What is driving this question now, is I see Vantec (FrSky) is manufacturing a ELRS module. I want to learn why I should risk my toys on this when "I" think FrSky won't risk their reputation and put their name on the module.

I assume there is a logic to marketing and branding. I admit I don't see it.


All the best,
Konrad

FYI:
I'm not an historian for our hobby. I'm just an active user, and bring my perspective from decades in the hobby to the discussion, Wether these are correct and accurate is open to debate. I welcome anybody's efforts to correct my mis-conceptions. In the end I hope to learn from my errors.

 

[Wayne]

FrSky never changed their name.
Yes, Hobby King was one of their original resellers. They probably OEM'd for some places to get their start, but eliminated that pretty quick.

Prior to the Taranis transmitter they were selling modules and receivers. They made both Futaba and JR and DIY versions of their modules that could be installed into existing radios converting old FM units to 2.4. This was back when 2.4 was a new a crazy thing. They had many competitors back than doing the same sort of thing, but FrSky stood out as they had the telemetry built in (years ahead of others) and their quality was far better than the other options. This is what allowed them to grow. This is when we opened Aloft and started selling their modules and receivers.

FrSky worked quietly in the background on their new transmitter, the Taranis. They brought the prototypes to Ohio and I was able to introduce the world to this new radio, that was really a fun tradeshow, we had a little booth, I think we had 2 or 3 radios and everyone wanted to check them out, we kept getting yelled at by the show staff that we needed to keep our crowd from blocking the walkway. It was an instant hit and we could not keep them in stock for the first year or so.

As FrSky grew, they grew their capabilities, as you stated they do almost all production in house. Engineering, programming, PCB, plastics, metal etc. This is not cheap, but gives them flexibility to make changes and improvements should a need arise.

FrSky's weak link is marketing. They use a very different business models than other RC businesses at the time. This is both a blessing and a curse. It means they don't have big slick magazine ads, or have a key distributor in each country, but many smaller ones. They do things very differently, and this is part of what keeps the radios very affordable when compared to other systems of similar high quality.

FrSky exists because they did things differently and had a good understanding of what customers would like years before other companies even understood what was happening. They made some very good decisions in the early years and have never really changed all that much.

I remember at that first trade show some of the big radio manufacturers had heard about the Taranis and stopped by the booth to check it out. They were not impressed. A few years later and two of them would be out of business and the others would be trying to catch up to that little radio for years to come.. Some still are. Had they recognized what the Taranis could do back then, they could have adapted their products to compete, but they had already invested in their R&D and were sticking with what they had.

HorusRC is a direct sales arm of FrSky. It has caused much friction for dealers like myself. It is a poor move for a manufacturer to sell direct when they have dealers. Pick one or the other, not both. Especially when you need your dealers to offer marketing and service. But these days we see this sort of thing a lot more. I think this is still something FrSky struggles to figure out.

The Horus X12S while not our favorite at Aloft but does have active followers that like the radio. I think FrSky really learned a lot with the X12S and the next few radios FrSky produced shows how much they learned. The X10S, X7, X9 Lite and Xlite are all VERY nice radios. The next big project for FrSky was the X20, and they again have done an outstanding job with that radio. The X20 was a much larger job as they really added a lot of difficulty with this one with new RF, new processors, new touch screen, and perhaps the biggest challenge, the new programming environment. Everyone was afraid of this huge effort, but it has proven to be an excellent combination again. And now with the release of the Tandem receivers we will really be able to see this radio flex some muscle.

FrSky has had blunders and made mistakes along the way, I don't mean to ignore those. They have a couple of key weaknesses within the company and I hope they get those worked out. All companies have challenges and they all make mistakes. FrSky has made fixes and tried to make things better. Often times I wish they would take longer and really test the fixes much more before releasing them. But I am pleased that they are very active in trying to do the right things.

 

[Konrad]

@Wayne, thank you for the break down. I will say that warts and all FrSky is the best provider of RC equipment for my needs. And a large component of that is the dealer network. I really hope FrSky realizes that the long term viability of the firm is tied to how the current customer base perceives how issues found will be dealt with, this means in a timely, expedient and accurate manner. Time and time again that means the dealer's technical prowess is key. While some business models will say cutting out the middle man adds to the bottom line. And if the middle man adds no value that might be true. But here in a highly technical product the dealer (good ones) do add a lot to the functionality and value for most end users. These dealers need to be supported, not undercut by HorusRC.

I'm still not clear as to how Vantec integrates into the FrSky's corporate line up. I want to know how FrSky (Vantec) carries the intellectual properties of these open sourced engineering products on their books before handing them my hard earned money.

I recall Page saying that FrSky was forced to change their name as a result of a legal challenge. I'll have to do some searching on that.

 

[HENNY]

Sounds like a lot of research for no actual gain?

 

[Konrad]

Again what?

It is a research activity. This is the nature of research, the end point is unknown. What may come out of it is unknown. It might be a better understanding, for me, the core of FrSky, be it of the corporate structure & culture, or just history. Both are worthy endeavors. As a history lesson I hope to find out if FrSky actually learns from her mistakes. As a customer I see the same disregard for the customer perspective time and time again. Maybe just maybe I can learn the why for their corporate behavior. Not likely, but I have been known to spend a lot more time on less profitable endeavors.

I'm still trying to learn the why for the Vantec branding. Something just doesn't ring true to my ears.

 

[Joe Garfield]

I think this is a great thread. I agree that it's nice to have an idea where a company is headed when deciding to spend more money on their products.

 

[Landru]

Judging by appearances, I'd say FrSky sees EthOS, ACCeSS, and possibly Tandem as the way forward for their 'flagship' products.

I'm mildly curious about the reasoning behind the offshoot branding of Vantac. But I'm more curious about support for external modules in general in EthOS. If I'm not mistaken, support for TBS and Ghost has been promised. On the other hand, official support for the MPM is at best uncertain, even for the Vantac version. For some folks, the lack of MPM support is a deal breaker. Others don't mind or may even see it as a plus. Perhaps, it will turn out to be a differentiating factor in FrSky's favour.

Whether EthOS will support the forthcoming Vantac ELRS module is another question.

And then there's the forthcoming Tandem module. Will it require EthOS? I sure hope it will be compatible with older FrSky radios running OpenTx. I'd leap at the opportunity to try Tandem on my current radios.

 

[MikeB]

Maybe for their "flagship" products, but I'm working with FrSky on something with an ACCESS module that currently supports ACCST D16 and ACCST D8 (EU legal version).

For those not aware, I have a version of erskyTx running on the X20. It is far from complete (no support for the internal module yet), but on the external module it supports the XJT lite and the MPM. I also have this running alongside ETHOS as a "dual boot" system, so you may switch between them without flashing firmware.

Mike

 

[Wayne]

Vantac - This is a brand that FrSky uses when they don't want to use the FrSky name. I personally think of it as stuff that might be damaging to the FrSky name, so they use another one. A key difference for me is the Vantac stuff has not enjoyed a long shelf life or good parts availability. It may be an OEM'd product from a third party, or maybe FrSky designed. They have used the brand with items like ARF multirotors, video transmitters, etc. At Aloft we do not default to offering these items like we would for a FrSky branded product. We have skipped more than a few of them. We usually bring in a sample to see if they might be worth offering. It has been mostly items for the multirotor market. At one point they were going to have a video camera like a GoPro, think that one died before going to market.

 

[Wayne]

EU legal D8??

 

[MikeB]

That's what I was told when I asked after finding out that D8 was supported on this (internal) module. I assume the Tx does LBT. I've never been certain about an Rx on D8.
With D8, the Tx sends 3 packets, at 9mS intervals, then the Rx sends telemetry data back during the following 9mS. I don't know how long it takes, but as it only transmits during part of 9mS every 36mS, it may be EU legal anyway.

Mike

 

[Landru]

Maybe for their "flagship" products, but I'm working with FrSky on something with an ACCESS module that currently supports ACCST D16 and ACCST D8 (EU legal version).

Well, now you've got me curious.

Somehow, I have a soft spot for radios that aren't top of the line. For example, my QX7 radios get more airtime than my X10S.

But I suspect you can't comment further so I'll wait for a public announcement.

 

[ridgerunner]

... For those not aware, I have a version of erskyTx running on the X20. ...

So I am confused. I thought that FrSky wanted to keep their new lineup proprietary (both hardware and firmware) so that they could defeat the cloners (i.e. Jumper, RadioMaster, RadioKing, etc). The only way to do this is to NOT allow the innards to be exposed.

But your erskyTx is an open source (GPL?) project and if released for the X20 would expose, (through the source code), all the inner workings and layout of the X20's hardware. Yes?

 

[Konrad]

And then there is the FrSky brand, Vantec. This appears to be a brand where FrSky manufactures and rebrands products that they don't have any engineering control over. This would be products like the Open Sourced MPM, ELRS and toys. I assume Vantec insulates FrSky from brand contamination/dilution and liabilities should these products outside of FrSky's engineering control fail.

Vantac - This is a brand that FrSky uses when they don't want to use the FrSky name. I personally think of it as stuff that might be damaging to the FrSky name, so they use another one. A key difference for me is the Vantac stuff has not enjoyed a long shelf life or good parts availability. It may be an OEM'd product from a third party, or maybe FrSky designed. They have used the brand with items like ARF multirotors, video transmitters, etc. At Aloft we do not default to offering these items like we would for a FrSky branded product. We have skipped more than a few of them. We usually bring in a sample to see if they might be worth offering. It has been mostly items for the multirotor market. At one point they were going to have a video camera like a GoPro, think that one died before going to market.

Wayne, Thank you, thank you!

This tends to validate my concern that the brand Vantec is a second tier product line to the FrSky brand.
This really concerns me particularly with regard to products FrSky manufactures and distributes. To my mind it is an admission that they (FrSky) don't trust the product. If FrSky isn't comfortable enough to put the company's reputation on the line by putting their name on the product. It would be ill advised for me, or any other customer, to put these Vantec RF products in any aircraft. Then there is the product life cycle problem you mention.

What little I know about marketing, rebranding is often use to try to differentiate one's offering from those of others. For example if firm X and firm Y are marketing the exact same product. Firm Y may rebrand that product as a way to limit the after sales support (warranty) to only the product (brand) they sold. Also some more ethical firms will rebrand when they actually add some value to the product, like a better hardware package, or a clear manual. (Now that's a novel concept)!

Looking at corporate culture this really concerns me. How can anybody engage in any activity and not try to do the best they possibly can? With Vantec's RF modules, FrSky has control of the whole process from the manufacturing to the sales and distribution through HorusRC.com. So why not step up, add the quality that would have given them the confidence to add their name (FrSky) to the product.

With my work in aerospace, where we dealt with the public's trust, we engineers were both criminally and civilly liable for the documents we signed. You can damn well be sure we did the best we could with the information available. It bothers me no end that corporate managers, MBA's and the like (bean counters) often don't have this work ethic embedded into their culture. If FrSky isn't comfortable enough to put their name on a product, that product shouldn't be sold until the managers have the confidence to put the FrSky name on the product! From here it just looks like corporate greed. FrSky would do well to learn from Boeing what corporate greed will do to the value and reputation of a firm!

All the best,
Konrad

 

[Konrad]

So I am confused. I thought that FrSky wanted to keep their new lineup proprietary (both hardware and firmware) so that they could defeat the cloners (i.e. Jumper, RadioMaster, RadioKing, etc). The only way to do this is to NOT allow the innards to be exposed.

But your erskyTx is an open source (GPL?) project and if released for the X20 would expose, (through the source code), all the inner workings and layout of the X20's hardware. Yes?

We don't know what the contract looks like. Also we don't know how the code is embedded with the OEM code. So the FrSky code maynot be exposed to the outside world through the open source code (is erSky an open source project?). You can see this with the new universal ACCST firmware. The initial download is controlled and protected by the dealers. Subsequent downloads can be done by the end user.

 

[getsuyoubi]

I'm not sure what you say about FrSky not trusting their own Vantac brand is necessarily true. Just look at car manufacturers - Ford used to own Jaguar, for example, but they did not change the name of either brand.