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The Glow Engine (Model AIrcraft Engine)

@Bad Falcon welcome to the forum. It's been 3 years since the last post on this thread. This forum isn't very active other than FrSky product issues and usage. As there are less than 10 active user here I don't see the value of taking more time on a subject that is just a history lesson. Glow is dead!

If you have a specific question or area of interest I might be able to give some guidance. I was thinking of doing some detail write up on the RC Carburetor. If I do that it will most likely be on the HIP forum.
 
Konrad,
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Glow wont die (or I wont let it die) as long as I am around !!.
I still have quite a few NIB engines and NIB kits to build. Coming back to the hobby after a 16 year layoff.

Do you use any kind of after run oil on your engines?

I want to share something with you - I just restarted a Rossi 45 and an OS FSR 61 on my test stand. The following may sound unbelievable but its what I did. The R45 was packed away sometime in 2004 (after 3 or 4 flights) and the OS61 in 2003 (this was an engine I got second hand with minimal flights). I didnt know it then (about the "so claimed" destructive qualities on rubber) but I sprayed WD40 into the crank area through the carbs, ie keeping it wide open and then pushing the spray straw right through before squirting quite generously. Unpacked them 2 weeks ago for mounting on my plane(s) and thought I will test them out on the test stand first. All I did was change the plugs and touched the high speed needle (close and open 2 1/2 turns). BOTH the engines started on their first kick of the starter !! The OS61 literally started as soon as the starter cone hit the spinner.
A lot has been said about WD 40 and its effects - so have I been just lucky or is it just a myth? I know there is a lot on the internet touching on this subject but who are we going to believe.
 
The Rossi was/is a fantastic engine. I've loved all the ones I've ever owned. You are aware that the brothers split and that in the end there were two Rossi's engine firms.

That OS FSR 61 is often thought as the pinnacle of the OS art of the glow engine.

I'm sure you are aware that I think OS engine is a second tier engine engine manufacture. They made OK to great sport engines. But when it comes to competition engines for events that were engine dominate (such as pylon racing) they were at best also ran. This is why they sponsored the top pilots so heavily in events such as FAI F3A. If these guys need to buy their own engines they usually used Super Tiger, Webra, YS and yes Rossi. Honestly this was usually a durability issue at power and the need for hours of practice. Electroless nickel plating has proven to be a poor substitute for hard chrome. And then there was a process used by OS for a period of time that actually destroyed OS (management shake up) and her reputation. (I go into a bit more detail here.)

Rubber is used as a generic term for flexible seal parts. When it comes to WD-40 or other chemicals we need to talk specific materials. WD-40 hasn't caused me any problems with O rings and gaskets found in our model engine other than those made from silicone (such as YS pump diaphragms).

WD-40 is a Water Displacement solvent. It isn't a good cleaner or lubricant for mechanical part. And while it does displace water it isn't a good rust preventer. The best that can be said of WD-40 is that it comes in a pressurized can and it can migrate (capillary action)into small areas (part of its water displacement properties). As I see no upside to using WD-40 I don't. The only down side I've found with WD-40 is that it can contaminate the platinum in our glow plugs. (I sometimes find a glassy coating on the glow element).

This WD-40 and the coagulated bits of oil is why I use old glow plugs when bringing my engines out of long term storage.

And YES to After Run Oil (ARO)!!!! Even with fuels that use 100% caster oil.* I used Automatic Transmission Fluid for all but my YS engines. Engines with silicone parts I used synthetic oil, such as Mobil Jet 1 turbine oil.

I've been into high powered electrics since 1986. With the advent of electrical power I haven't chosen a glow engine for my planes since 2003. This has changed recently as I've a few AMA entry class pylon racers with the Jett 40, Jett Q500 (I'd have to look up the AMA class number). I'm using glow because that is the engine callout for the class. I'd have much preferred the FAI F5d and NMPRA EF-1 classes and this is coming from a guy that built the engine(s) that won the USA Nats for F3D in 1989.

* I don't use ARO in lapped iron piston with 100% castor oil fuels as the ARO detergents might clean the varnish (seal) compromising the base compression. I'm thinking of the old Fox 35 stunt.
 
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Thank you for your input on ARO. Will look out of synthetic ATF and MJ 1 turbine oil.
On electrics - well we all have to move on at some point. I guess I am still with it because I still have them !! I will go E-power with helicopters though. I am sourcing for a 450 class to start off...and see how it goes from there.
 
Synthetic oils are only needed for engines with silicon parts. These are usually the YS and maybe engines with diaphragm pumps and fuel regulators.
 
Greetings Konrad:

As a lover of glow engines I bulked up on Enya glow engines when everyone was going electrics. At my previous home, the air bleed carbs worked fine for me and seemed easy to maintain with few parts. So for the long term (20 yr retirement), with little future parts support, simple seemed better, so I went "all in" on lapped piston, air bleed carb Enya engines.

I recently retired to a locale situated 5300 ft above sea level, my previous home was 300 ft above sea level. I am having a devil of a time adjusting the carbs and I suspect that the altitude is the problem. I can adjust the high end well enough, but no matter what I do, I can not get the low end lean enough.

My current issue is with 2 Enya 40SS engines. With the air bleed screw all the way out (can’t see it at all) the idle mixture is still very rich, even with a lean high speed needle setting. I am running 10% fuel with 22% total oil, 1/2 castor and 1/2 synthetic, Enya #3 plug and a 10 x 6 APC prop. I had a similar problem with a K&B Sportster .28 but was able to get the idle mixture correct by adjusting the idle mixture disc to almost full lean (similar to a Perry carb).

I can adjust the length of the spray bar on the Enya engines and was considering extending it further into the venturi from it”s current position of 1/2 way across the venturi. But perhaps adjusting it the other way would be better, I’m not sure. I have also considered drilling out the air bleed hole a little to get more air into the carb at idle. As a last resort, I could probably buy Perry carbs but the expense to equip all of my engines would be significant. The engines have great compression and otherwise run very well.

Do you have any advice on how to adjust these for my altitude? Should I adjust the spray bar position in the venturi, change nitro percentage, adjust prop size, different plug or something else?

Thank you for your help.

049flyer
Prescott, AZ
 
Lots going on here. I grew up in Denver and flew at fields ranging in altitude from 5.5k to 8.5+k feet.

I’ll give you a write up next time I’m at my computer. There are issues that work contrary to expectations.
 
Thank you! I look forward to your reply.

As an aside, I do have a few K&B 61 engines with the dual needle carbs and these have made the altitude transition without issue, a tweak on the high needle and a tweak on the low and we are off to the "races". I certainly understand your opinion of air bleed carbs, especially after my move.

When approaching retirement I thought long and hard about continuing in my glow addiction and how best to prepare for the trip through time without parts support. Which engine manufacturer makes long lived engine, which type of engine would be the most reliable and easiest to maintain assuming no parts availability. I concluded either; (1.) engines with tremendous popularity so that used parts would always be available or, (2.) engines with incredible lifespans. My choice was Enya engines for .40 size and below (lapped pistons & air bleed carbs), and K&B 61s (K&B 61 is as large as I go). I now have a rather large assortment of Enya engines and parts as well as 1/2 dozen K&B 61s and parts. I also, in a moment of weakness purchased a few K&B .20 & .28 Sportsters.

I've been retired for only a year and have started to put my plan in action, and have just now discovered the flaw in my plan. The air bleed carbs! All the K&B engines are OK. The three Enya engines I have tried so far, all exhibit the same problem, way too rich at idle. My choices are now, fix the engine problem, buy new carbs, or sell all the Enya engines and procure other used engines with better carbs (but which ones?).

Thanks again for your response.
 
Ok lets start by stating MY biases. I don't like Nitro for sport engines Generally I like to use FAI fuel (80% methanol and 20% castor oil) I will go up to 15% nitro as some sport racing rules spec this fuel. Now some of the design from the 80's and earlier engines for the USA market do run better with nitro as high as 25%. These can be identified as the heads often don't have much of a squish band. To aid idling I often like to add 3% to 5% acetone rather than nitro.

I don't like any synthetic in the old lapped P&Ls. I've seen these synthetic act as a varnish remover damaging the base compression seal on used well broken in engines. To this day 100% castor oil is still the best for the leaded liner with lapped cast iron piston.

The airbleed is NOT there to effect a change in the stoichiometric mixture balance, well not directly. The purpose of the airbleed is to bleed most of the idle air under the spray bar so that this air does not pick up fuel from the spray bar. (See Bernoulli pressure drop as a function of flow). In post 16 you can see where Super Tiger messed up on the air bleed for the 1965 ST23. The original air bleed was too high up in the carb throat as it allowed the "bleed " air to flow past the spray bar picking up fuel (causing a pressure drop). I drilled a new real bleed port to allow air to bleed under the spray bar. This air did not contribute to the pressure drop. Air bleed carbs have poor fuel flow at idle. It is this poor fuel draw that limits the fuel flow at idle. (Truth be told poor fuel draw is just what we don't want at idle! The auto mixture carb allows all the air flowing at idle to aid in the drawing of fuel). A big influence on idle performance with an air bleed carb is the tank placement. IF YOU CAN'T GET THE MIXTURE LEAN ENOUGH TRY LOWERING THE TANK.

I also don't like the 10x6 prop on sport 0.40 CID (6.5cc engines). With rare exception I find a marked improvement in airframe performance dropping down to a 9x6, 9x7 prop. Occasionally even a 10x5 will out perform the 10x6 on large winged trainers. This is because the engine really is just a heat pump. Allowing the engine to spin up will allow the carb to draw more air at full power. This will result in a stronger pressure drop across the spray bar. To keep the mixture in balance you will need to lean the high end mixture. This lean mixture will be in effect through out the full throttle range with an airbleed carb. A big plus with a faster spinning engine is that your pitch speed will go up. You will need more speed at altitude to lift the same airframe weight. So think about trading some static thrust for real air speed by going down on the diameter of the prop and going up on the pitch.

As to the glow plug I forget how Enya spec'd their plugs. But I like to use the glow plugs with the higher platinum content. These were usually labeled as cold for high nitro engines. The reason nitro engines need more platinum, is that it is the catalytic reaction between the methanol and platinum that helps combine the oxygen. In high nitro fuel the nitro displaces the methanol making it more difficult for this catalytic reaction hence the need for more platinum.

Ok to your issues. I too find it odd that you can't get a leaning response. Make sure your bleed port is in fact clear. The use of castor oil fuel can leave old oil blocking the bleed port. As it is the pressure differential between the tank vent and the carb spray bar that draws the fuel into the engine. With less air pressure at altitude the fuel should flow less. As to the glow plug question, does the engine run better at full power with the glow plug lit. If so you need to advance the timing with a hotter plug (one with more platinum) or less head clearance.

I don't recall if your Enyas have head gaskets. If they do try to remove 0.1mm to 0.15mm (0.004" to 0.006") worth. This is to aid timing and combustion.

Don't drill new or larger air bleeds. The Enya carb was of a good working design. Now Enya and others did have a true auto-mixture carbs with an airbleed adjust to fine tune the mid range on their higher end engines.

And last try some fresh fuel. Older fuel often doesn't have as much methanol as it use to.

If none of this helps we can go deeper into the combustion process.

As to engines I LOVE the Super Tiger with the MAG V carb. I hate the OS FP & LA with their air bleeds and poor nickel P&Ls.
I don't think changing the airbleed to a Perry will help much. Yes, the Perry is a much better carb than the airbleed. By the way, the latter K&B carb is not of the same design as the Perry. The Perry is a slot over hole design. The K&B uses a comma shaped metering port. The Perry is prone running rich in the mid range the K&B is much better in the mid range.

Mecoa is a vendor that often tries to keep these old machines running with new replacement parts.
 
Konrad:

Thank you for the swift reply. I request that you enlighten me concerning the positioning of the spray bar in the carb, the Enya spray bar can be adjusted so it does not protrude into the airstream through the throat or it can be extended almost all the way across the throat. In both engines it extends about 1/2 way across, however I have seen other engines where it extends all the way across and others where it is barely visible. Would the spray bar position have any bearing on my problem?

With the air bleed hole completely open and high speed set, advancing the throttle after a few seconds of idle results in much spitting of raw fuel from the exhaust and usually flame out. Pinch test indicates a too rich idle as well.

As to your questions and comments, in no particular order:
1. The engines run great at wide open throttle and no glow plug heat from a battery.
2. The fuel is very fresh as I mix it myself from fresh ingredients and my other engines (Control Line) run great with it. I mix it as I need it. I have been mixing my own fuel for over a decade without problems.
3. I will try a smaller propeller
4. I will mix some lower nitro fuel, FAI or 5% and see what happens. I will look into running straight castor oil in all my engines.
5. I can't lower the tank on either airplane without massive airframe modifications.
6. I have checked the air bleed hole first off, stuck a piece of wire through it. It's clear.
7. I have tried different plugs with the same result. All of my plugs are hot, OS#8, Enya #3, or K&B 1L.
8. I usually try to build my planes so that the center of the tank is slightly below the needle valve or even with it.

I will report back in a few days.

Thanks again.

049flyer
Prescott, AZ
 
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The spray bar placed at the near side will draw the least. Meaning you will need to open the high speed needle for the same fuel flow. You may gain some choke area, for more top end power. The spray bar centered gives the strongest signal (pressure drop) drawing the fuel the best as a function of flow. The spray bar to the far side chokes the cab cutting down on top end but it can help with the fuel draw as the smaller choke area keeps the air flow velocity high.

In my sport engines I generally like the spray bar centered. In my race engines I place it to the near side. I can't think of when I placed it to the far side. Going to the far might help as you will need a leaner setting on account of the smaller choke area. But I think this is too high a price to pay in the way of performance. Particularly since you are down on power as a result of the altitude.

Run great at top end. No real change when you add glow heat?

Modern non-lapped engine run well with synthetics or synthetic castor blends.

P. S.
I find that a heavy prop spinner can aid with the idle. But will slow the throttle responce and can effect the up and down lines.
 
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Konrad:

I have some preliminary results of your suggestions. I know I am supposed to change only one thing at a time but I decided that under the circumstances a drastic change was needed. The Enya 40SS is mounted in a newly built OLD Andrews A-Ray kit from the mid 1960's, the suggested engine range was .19 to .35 and since I didn't have a throttled .35 laying about, and as I live at 5000 ft elevation, I thought a plain bearing, lapped piston Enya .40 would work well (it's overpowered). So on to my changes:

1. I mixed up some 5% nitro, 22% all castor fuel for testing.
2. I changed props 1 notch down to a MA 10x5 from a 10x6. The plane is overpowered and I don't need speed so a 9x6 seemed a bit faster than a 10x5.
3. I moved the spray bar in about 3 turns increasing the air flow through the carb, it extends about 1/4 of the way across the throat. It was about 1/2.
4. The plane needed down thrust so I raised the rear about 1/8 inch and the front about 1/16 inch with a shim (increased the engine height).
5. I tested with the fuel tank 1/3 full, I have not yet tested with a full tank

Results: I have control of the low side mixture, the bleed screw is about 1/4 of the way across the hole. Before it was all the way out and still too rich.

It started to rain before I could try with a full tank but I think I may be on to something now. Thanks for your help, I will continue to report when I have tested a bit more.

By the way, I have found a couple of used Enya 2 needle carburetors (TN), just in case. I know you mentioned that I probably don't need a better carb but if I was to buy a better carb, do you suggest the Enya or Perry?

Thank you.

049flyer
 
Enya carb !!! The Perry was way better than the airbleed. But just about any other auto-mixture carb would be better than the Perry. I love the Bodemann style twin needle carbs as you can change the metering profile by changing the needle profiles. This is nice to have when moving up to piped high performance engine.

Note the ST Mag V carb does allow one to modify the mid range by clocking the "cat's eye". This is better than most twin needle carbs as it allows you to get back to your original setting if you don't like the effect. With the classic Bodemann style twin needle carbs you need to replace the needle to get back to your starting position.

If buying carbs (sport carbs and carbs with a hint towards high performance) do give the ST carb a good look. What one needs to focus on is the neck diameter and choke area. (Choke area is the diameter of the choke minis the area displaced by the spray bar position). For sport work you want to keep the choke area within 10% of the stock choke area. As you are at high altitudes you will actually want to go down a bit is choke area to help maintain good fuel draw.

Loved the A-RAY! In your experiments don't forget to re-visit the 9x6 or 9.5x6. I think you will be surprised at the power/performance. By the way the A-RAY is a 40 size ship based on the weight of the radios of its day. Today with the lighter servos (15 gram) you might get away with the power from a modern Schnuerle ported 0.25 cid engine and still smoke any performance expectation Lou Anderson might have foreseen for his A-RAY design.

BTW; I like to use 8x6 to 9x4 for my 4cc engines.
 
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Yours truly with The A-Ray.

My first build in retirement, I've been dragging that kit around with me for over 30 years. Bought it at a garage sale which started 30 years of collecting kits to build once I retired. Now I get to build them all!

I built it old school with a single servo in the wing and bell cranks, rubber bands too! Covered with silkspan and Sig Koverall applied with hardware store lacquer and painted with fuel proof water based paint. Decals were cut out with my Cricut Maker vinyl cutter which also cuts balsa very well too.

Thanks to your help I hope to get the engine running (idling) like it should so no more dead stick landings, or fewer of them anyway. So far I've managed to get back to the runway every time.
 

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It’s time to move up to the Anderson Trainer Master with its symmetrical airfoil. I also loved the mini Master on a schneurle ported 30 sized engine. Oh, then there was the sport H-Ray.

Love that you are using painted finishes!😍
 
I actually have an Andrews Minimaster kit in the stash but no Trainermaster. However the Trainermaster is on my scratch build list, plans on Outerzone I hope.
 
I actually have an Andrews Minimaster kit in the stash but no Trainermaster. However the Trainermaster is on my scratch build list, plans on Outerzone I hope.
Would you consider selling the mini Master kit. It was a ship I spent much of my mispent youth flying in my high school days. It died a glow fuel cancer death. Oil soaked structure from so many gallons of fuel run through her. I think I wore out 3 OS FSR 28 and 32 engines. Great times!!!
 
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Nitromethane. I am now confused. My understanding is that since it is in effect an oxidizer you can put a much richer fuel to air ratio and still burn efficiently. This has the same effect as increasing the displacement without doing so. How am I wrong here.
 
To go back to sept. 8 comment that Konrad made about not liking nitro in sport engines, when running cox and ok cub .049,s I found the more nitro the better, up to 40% with extra castor oil. Red Max is still in business under another name. Would get a thirteen minute run on one ounce (ok cub).
 
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