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The Glow Engine (Model AIrcraft Engine)
- Thread starter Konrad
- Start date
Haoyang Wang
Very Strong User
When I need more thrust from an electric motor, I will simply get a larger motor, or if there is space/weight constraint, a motor with higher kV (which is usually no more expensive, just consumes more amps). That, and also a larger ESC and battery to match.
For glow engines, can we just have a larger engine if we need higher performance? Or a propeller in higher pitch to compensate for the lack of RPM?
I have never been serious with glow engines. I must have been permanently scarred by the memory of crouching under the scorching Taiwanese sun with a Thunder Tiger engine refusing to start.
Thanks for this informing thread, reminding me of what I have missed all the years...
Haoyang
For glow engines, can we just have a larger engine if we need higher performance? Or a propeller in higher pitch to compensate for the lack of RPM?
I have never been serious with glow engines. I must have been permanently scarred by the memory of crouching under the scorching Taiwanese sun with a Thunder Tiger engine refusing to start.
Thanks for this informing thread, reminding me of what I have missed all the years...
Haoyang
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Konrad
Very Strong User
That works to a point. Then the curves start to diverge. Like stalled props from too much pitch, power to weight starts to drop as a result of inefficiencies. Unfortunately thing are not linear.
What a lot of folks don't realize is that the power curve for I.C. engines and electric motors slope in opposite directions. This means prop selection is often reversed.
What time frame for the TT engines? I have measure some new TT engine with the sleeve taper backwards (smaller below the ports and larger towards the head). I'm sure this would have been difficult to get to run! Later TT engine are much better than the same class (price point) OS engine. They should be as they often had the same designer.
All the best,
Konrad
What a lot of folks don't realize is that the power curve for I.C. engines and electric motors slope in opposite directions. This means prop selection is often reversed.
What time frame for the TT engines? I have measure some new TT engine with the sleeve taper backwards (smaller below the ports and larger towards the head). I'm sure this would have been difficult to get to run! Later TT engine are much better than the same class (price point) OS engine. They should be as they often had the same designer.
All the best,
Konrad
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Haoyang Wang
Very Strong User
It was in early '80s. The engines were Thunder Tiger .15 and .25 for control line. TT was the affordable brand that beginners usually got.
To be fair, now I am not sure if it's the engine to blame. It could be the dubious fuel we bought from the local hobby shop, or it could be anything else. The problem was we did not actually know what we were doing...
Japanese brands had huge presence in Taiwan back then, partially due to geographical closeness but also due to similar living environments: small apartments, small school yards, etc. American models were too large to be practical, especially for kids without cars. So JR, Futaba, OS, and Enya are all luxury brands. I am glad that TT finally caught up.
To be fair, now I am not sure if it's the engine to blame. It could be the dubious fuel we bought from the local hobby shop, or it could be anything else. The problem was we did not actually know what we were doing...
Japanese brands had huge presence in Taiwan back then, partially due to geographical closeness but also due to similar living environments: small apartments, small school yards, etc. American models were too large to be practical, especially for kids without cars. So JR, Futaba, OS, and Enya are all luxury brands. I am glad that TT finally caught up.
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purview
Very Strong User
Nice insides to difficulties when trying out new things on tha lawn. Taiwan was also as a good marker burned into my memory as I was dedicated to the new ALIGN helicopter brand. They set up new bench markes especially on the electric section. They also had a very nice testing area near a huge river basin in the heart if taipei with lots of videos of their ongoing work. TT was here in Europe, as I grew up, more a cheap scrap that cannot live long under european environment conditions. The only brand thing I tried was a TT Raptor50 with an 46. glow engine. The engine could have lived longer than my interest in it.. but now I lost sense to helis.
Is the, as the P&Ss picture shows, not an answer of what can be done to improve performance or is it just du underline different brands and their design goals? If one is the heli and the other the hanno, then they pretty much have to do the same but not equal in times
Are the wholes the same size or are they?
Is the, as the P&Ss picture shows, not an answer of what can be done to improve performance or is it just du underline different brands and their design goals? If one is the heli and the other the hanno, then they pretty much have to do the same but not equal in times
Are the wholes the same size or are they?
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Konrad
Very Strong User
You bring up some good points. It is the 2.5cc class of engine is by far the most popular world wide, both from a designers point of view and customers. This size class of model is the smallest "practical" size for most modelers. This is taking into account storage and flying sites needed.
You may have had issues with the engine. The sleeve issue I mentioned was on a 0.15 c.i.d. engine with the cast iron piston and leaded steel sleeves (known as lapped P&Ls, [ringless]). These engine are highly dependent on how the piston and liner are fitted. For most manufactures this is done by hand with a rigid hone. This matched machining process is why you can't buy a just the piston of sleeve with lapped engines. These are sold as sets.
In the case of TT the machinist had honed the proper tapper. It was just that it wasn't clear in TT process (paper work) which end of the sleeve went towards the case and the other end went to the head. If the machinist wasn't a hobbyist how was he to know which end was which. Again this was a failing of management. It was also unethical to send these flawed liners out for sale to kids like you and me.
The TT engine from the 90's and later are as good if not better than the OS engines of the same time period. As measured by materials, workmanship, design and performance.
I liked the Taipan, Enya, and even the Fuji engines. My favorite engine size is the 2.5cc to 4.5cc engine. I did love my 1/2As and cherish my Cox 0.010 Tee Dees.
All the best,
Konrad
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Konrad
Very Strong User
Yep, TT was into a lot of the model sectors. I too have a lot of time with the Schluter, Hirobro, and Align helicopters.
I’m not really following your line of questioning. But I’ll try to answer what I think your are asking.
The true ABC P&Ls I’m showing are for very different engines. These are true performance upgrade parts as the materials are far superior to what OS offered with their (ABN, ABL or ABC type) engines.
The one on the left is an FSR liner where the ports are cut for a pipe (large blow down period*). The arch is to try to allow good pipe response and at the same time good throttle ability (power management**). This P&L is tuned to produce power in the 16.5K to 18K rpm band.
The Liner on the right is the “long stroke” Hanno. This is again a piped sleeve. But with a very strong emphasis on pipe performance to maximize torque***. It is tuned to produce max power in the 11K to 12K rpm band. As a piped sleeve it has a rather mild exhaust timing. To gain back the needed exhaust port area that the pipe needs, the top of the port is cut to extend over the inlet transfer ports. You will note it has the center web. This is done to stabilize the piston as it goes across the port. This does hamper gas flow and was not done on the FSR liner for this reason.
* Blow down is the time in degrees that the exhaust is open before the piston uncovers the inlet ports.
** Power management is very important to a heli. This is not to be confused with RPM changes as is often associated with throttles. A properly set up heli engine is close to a single RPM power source, regardless of the power setting.
*** A pipe can be thought of as a gearbox as it allow one to move the torque curve were one might want. Most think of pipes as high rpm devices, but it can just as easily be tuned to make power in a lower rpm band than the same engine would in an open exhaust configuration.
I’m not really following your line of questioning. But I’ll try to answer what I think your are asking.
The true ABC P&Ls I’m showing are for very different engines. These are true performance upgrade parts as the materials are far superior to what OS offered with their (ABN, ABL or ABC type) engines.
The one on the left is an FSR liner where the ports are cut for a pipe (large blow down period*). The arch is to try to allow good pipe response and at the same time good throttle ability (power management**). This P&L is tuned to produce power in the 16.5K to 18K rpm band.
The Liner on the right is the “long stroke” Hanno. This is again a piped sleeve. But with a very strong emphasis on pipe performance to maximize torque***. It is tuned to produce max power in the 11K to 12K rpm band. As a piped sleeve it has a rather mild exhaust timing. To gain back the needed exhaust port area that the pipe needs, the top of the port is cut to extend over the inlet transfer ports. You will note it has the center web. This is done to stabilize the piston as it goes across the port. This does hamper gas flow and was not done on the FSR liner for this reason.
* Blow down is the time in degrees that the exhaust is open before the piston uncovers the inlet ports.
** Power management is very important to a heli. This is not to be confused with RPM changes as is often associated with throttles. A properly set up heli engine is close to a single RPM power source, regardless of the power setting.
*** A pipe can be thought of as a gearbox as it allow one to move the torque curve were one might want. Most think of pipes as high rpm devices, but it can just as easily be tuned to make power in a lower rpm band than the same engine would in an open exhaust configuration.
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Konrad
Very Strong User
Staying with Thunder Tiger a bit. Around the mid 90's OS made the fateful decision to change their nickel plating process, what they were calling (ABC type) but was really just a typical ABN engine. OS changed from the industry norm of using a two stage plating process to a much faster single stage production process*. This was done over the objection of the vice president of OS Engineering, Kazuhiro Mihara. He knew nickel plating even when done correctly was very inferior to true hard chrome plating. But as a result of environmental pressures he was willing to take the performance hit and forego hard chrome plating for most of the OS's line of sport engines. But to almost guaranty failure of the liner to save few seconds of processing time he could not abide with the bean counters.
Mr. Mihara was correct! The result of this single step plating process is that the FX and other OS ringless engine have a reputation for pealing their nickel linings. This really isn't a fair hit on OS engines, as it is only the engines made in this time period before OS, moved back to the industry standard plating process under the OS trademark ABL, that have this high plating failure rate.
As a result of this single step plating process he left OS engines and started to work with Thunder Tiger in Taiwan. In what appeared to be an overnight transition Thunder Tiger engines moved from be what could best be called so so/also ran sport engines at best. To being able to best what OS could deliver at the same price point (market sector).
This shouldn’t really have been a surprise to anyone as Mr. Mihara is the engineer that put OS on the map as having good reliable and innovative engines. He brought the Graupner/OS Wankel to market, he introduced schnuerle porting to OS, he is also credited with developing the OS four stroke and dear to my heart he designed the FRS series of engine.
*A property of electroless nickel plating is that the hardness of the plating can be controlled in the plating bath by the temp and pH levels. Unfortunately the harder the plating corresponds with weaker bond strength. This is why the proper application of nickel plating as a wear surface is to use a dual stage plating process. In the first plating tank the nickel solution is prep'ed for a soft plating resulting in good bond strength to the parent material (brass). After this thin layer has been deposited the part is place in a second bath prep'ed to produce a much harder nickel plating. As nickel has a strong affinity for itself, the bonding of this hard layer for the softer layer of nickel is not a problem.
Now one of the beauties of brass is that there are more than enough free copper electrons that there is no need for a strike coat to aid or protect the brass in the plating process. If fact one doesn’t want to use any strike coats as it would just introduce another potential failure point to the plating process.
Yes, Nickel plating can be heat treated to a very hard surface that approaches that of chrome. But to do that the heat needed brings brass to a plastic state (almost melted). Not good for parts made out of brass!
You might hear elsewhere that OS is now using a magical coating to keep the nickel attached to the brass. This just isn’t so. It is just a softer nickel coating just like it was back in the days when we first saw OS come out with their "ABC type" P&Ls. OS’s marketing has just come out with a new trademark" ABL" to try to distance themselves from the disaster that was the single step electroless plating process often known as OS’s ABN P&L**.
**Many firms know how to properly plate electroless nickel onto brass. Thunder Tiger for instance. Heck, even OS knew how to plate nickel properly! It is just OS’s single step electroless nickel plating process that resulted is such a high failure rate for their ABN liners.
All the best,
Konrad
Mr. Mihara was correct! The result of this single step plating process is that the FX and other OS ringless engine have a reputation for pealing their nickel linings. This really isn't a fair hit on OS engines, as it is only the engines made in this time period before OS, moved back to the industry standard plating process under the OS trademark ABL, that have this high plating failure rate.
As a result of this single step plating process he left OS engines and started to work with Thunder Tiger in Taiwan. In what appeared to be an overnight transition Thunder Tiger engines moved from be what could best be called so so/also ran sport engines at best. To being able to best what OS could deliver at the same price point (market sector).
This shouldn’t really have been a surprise to anyone as Mr. Mihara is the engineer that put OS on the map as having good reliable and innovative engines. He brought the Graupner/OS Wankel to market, he introduced schnuerle porting to OS, he is also credited with developing the OS four stroke and dear to my heart he designed the FRS series of engine.
*A property of electroless nickel plating is that the hardness of the plating can be controlled in the plating bath by the temp and pH levels. Unfortunately the harder the plating corresponds with weaker bond strength. This is why the proper application of nickel plating as a wear surface is to use a dual stage plating process. In the first plating tank the nickel solution is prep'ed for a soft plating resulting in good bond strength to the parent material (brass). After this thin layer has been deposited the part is place in a second bath prep'ed to produce a much harder nickel plating. As nickel has a strong affinity for itself, the bonding of this hard layer for the softer layer of nickel is not a problem.
Now one of the beauties of brass is that there are more than enough free copper electrons that there is no need for a strike coat to aid or protect the brass in the plating process. If fact one doesn’t want to use any strike coats as it would just introduce another potential failure point to the plating process.
Yes, Nickel plating can be heat treated to a very hard surface that approaches that of chrome. But to do that the heat needed brings brass to a plastic state (almost melted). Not good for parts made out of brass!
You might hear elsewhere that OS is now using a magical coating to keep the nickel attached to the brass. This just isn’t so. It is just a softer nickel coating just like it was back in the days when we first saw OS come out with their "ABC type" P&Ls. OS’s marketing has just come out with a new trademark" ABL" to try to distance themselves from the disaster that was the single step electroless plating process often known as OS’s ABN P&L**.
**Many firms know how to properly plate electroless nickel onto brass. Thunder Tiger for instance. Heck, even OS knew how to plate nickel properly! It is just OS’s single step electroless nickel plating process that resulted is such a high failure rate for their ABN liners.
All the best,
Konrad
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Konrad
Very Strong User
Ok I'm lost again. What do you mean "overheated"? If you mean go into detail, then yes that is my aim with this thread.
My post#47 was to ty to answer your question asked in post #45.
My post#46 was a follow up to Haoyang Wang's experience with TT in post #44
MY post#49 was again a follow up to what I think you were asking about materials, and as Haoyang Wang and Hank were commenting on the quality of TT. I thought I'd try to explain, as far as I know it, what happened to OS and TT as they are linked by Mr. Mihara.
"Tuning is also is always to strengthen data sheets", I'm lost. Are you asking for power plot (graphs) showing dyno results. Like the Hanno shows peak HP at 1.85hp@ 18.8Krpm (open exhaust). Not exactly a low RPM engine and not as powerful as the as the Rossi 40 produces 1.91 hp at 17.5K RPM with stinger muffler. Now on the Hatori long pipe (the red one marketed by OS) the Hanno produces 2.1 hp@ 9.8K rpm.
All the best,
Konrad
My post#47 was to ty to answer your question asked in post #45.
My post#46 was a follow up to Haoyang Wang's experience with TT in post #44
MY post#49 was again a follow up to what I think you were asking about materials, and as Haoyang Wang and Hank were commenting on the quality of TT. I thought I'd try to explain, as far as I know it, what happened to OS and TT as they are linked by Mr. Mihara.
"Tuning is also is always to strengthen data sheets", I'm lost. Are you asking for power plot (graphs) showing dyno results. Like the Hanno shows peak HP at 1.85hp@ 18.8Krpm (open exhaust). Not exactly a low RPM engine and not as powerful as the as the Rossi 40 produces 1.91 hp at 17.5K RPM with stinger muffler. Now on the Hatori long pipe (the red one marketed by OS) the Hanno produces 2.1 hp@ 9.8K rpm.
All the best,
Konrad
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purview
Very Strong User
tuning has a specific aim which is set up by the tuner
My Dad, he is also the guy who introduced me into this hobby, has the Hanno Special (red cap) somewhere in his toolbox. It is for a tuned pipe with rear exhaust. But at the last try he had troubles with leaking and stopped to work on it. This was decades ago and should power up the SupraFly60 from EZ. Only for sport flying purpose... I regret
My Dad, he is also the guy who introduced me into this hobby, has the Hanno Special (red cap) somewhere in his toolbox. It is for a tuned pipe with rear exhaust. But at the last try he had troubles with leaking and stopped to work on it. This was decades ago and should power up the SupraFly60 from EZ. Only for sport flying purpose... I regret
Hi Konrad,
What were the details on the Hatori pipe? Was it intended for a specific engine (OS) or could it be used for different brands? Can it be replicated (can somebody build one up) since the originals cost a lot $$$$$?
Konrad
Very Strong User
Nothing magical. The Harori pipe was a single divergent cone that used a reflective wall (washer). There were added accustical chambers "muffers" that suppressed various noise frequancies. The key feature was that the differgent cone had a shallow tapper and was long. SO was the placement of the reflectice wall.
The Hanno Pipe was the same basic pipe but anodized RED and rebranded carring the OS Engine Brand in the casting.
But yesmthe engine and pipe often need to be designed as a system. Not hard to do, Just that one needs to understand what is happening in the paipe and in the engine.
If you know how to spin alluminum draw cones it would be easy to recreate. After all there are no moving parts in a pipe.
The Hanno Pipe was the same basic pipe but anodized RED and rebranded carring the OS Engine Brand in the casting.
But yesmthe engine and pipe often need to be designed as a system. Not hard to do, Just that one needs to understand what is happening in the paipe and in the engine.
If you know how to spin alluminum draw cones it would be easy to recreate. After all there are no moving parts in a pipe.
The Hatori pipe looks a lot like the NovaRossi pipe but red colored instead of black.
Konrad
Very Strong User
Not surprissed, pipes are rather simple devices. Pipes designed for the same function will actually look much the same.
in that 4 pipe photo I'm showing several pipes & constrution methods. The top pipe is a 1990's Nelson marketed FAI-F3D pipe the next two are 10cc pipes for the FAI -F3A classes (low noise). And the last is a Hatori 15cc pipe.
At some time I'll do a write up on the anotate photo to highlighting the design features.
in that 4 pipe photo I'm showing several pipes & constrution methods. The top pipe is a 1990's Nelson marketed FAI-F3D pipe the next two are 10cc pipes for the FAI -F3A classes (low noise). And the last is a Hatori 15cc pipe.
At some time I'll do a write up on the anotate photo to highlighting the design features.
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Konrad
Very Strong User
As we are discussing a lot of the Hanno, here is a review done by Radio Control Modeler’s engine salesman and the great designer for Veco engines Clarence Lee. I don’t know when this engine review was published but we can see that Mr.Lee is getting rather annoyed with OS’s nomenclature practice of calling their sub standard nickel plating ABC when in fact it the construction is just ABN. (see attached under Piston, Rod & Sleeve). Note where he says there is a big difference between Nickel and Chrome!
Clarence Lee in his Engine Clinic column goes into great detail explaining why true chrome plating is so superior to electroless nickel plating. I wish I has a copy of this Engine Clinic. If anybody has a copy of RCM from the time period with that column please post it or provide a link to it.
It really was interesting to see how a salesman/Ad-man hyped a product verse how the same man as an engineer explained the product & process. The take away is that ABN (Nickel) is inferior to ABC (hard Chrome) plating in all areas, other than the cost of manufacturing. I will try to go in the detail, if the RCM Engine Clinic artical doesn't surface.
All the best,
Konrad
Clarence Lee in his Engine Clinic column goes into great detail explaining why true chrome plating is so superior to electroless nickel plating. I wish I has a copy of this Engine Clinic. If anybody has a copy of RCM from the time period with that column please post it or provide a link to it.
It really was interesting to see how a salesman/Ad-man hyped a product verse how the same man as an engineer explained the product & process. The take away is that ABN (Nickel) is inferior to ABC (hard Chrome) plating in all areas, other than the cost of manufacturing. I will try to go in the detail, if the RCM Engine Clinic artical doesn't surface.
All the best,
Konrad
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purview
Very Strong User
is it stupid to see the compressionzone of one stroke just before turning on the top as as the gas/air explosive link to the stump pulling powerhouse (the 61RF ABC HS) as described by Clearence Lee who indicated that he pays no detail to the used glow-plug. Which should sit in the combustion chamber as the spark plug to the avtomobil. Only environment (pressure, humidity..), prop and fuel infos on the test rig while to do load the engine down.
89 is a long way back, must have been good times there in Las Vegas...TOC
89 is a long way back, must have been good times there in Las Vegas...TOC
Konrad
Very Strong User
The 70's and 80's are thought of as the golden era of the model 2 stroke engine.
I'm not following the rest of the post. Mr.Lee was commenting that OS supplied a glow plug. While many other engine manufactures did not. (Some claimed that US tariffs were levied higher on engines with glow plugs verses engine without them. Something about complete engines verses engine assemblies/parts).
Please note that this is the first "long stroke" model engine Mr. Lee has tested.
I'm not following the rest of the post. Mr.Lee was commenting that OS supplied a glow plug. While many other engine manufactures did not. (Some claimed that US tariffs were levied higher on engines with glow plugs verses engine without them. Something about complete engines verses engine assemblies/parts).
Please note that this is the first "long stroke" model engine Mr. Lee has tested.
Bad Falcon
New User
Konrad - Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain RC engines. Keep it coming...dont stop now.
Purview - Are you using google translate?
Purview - Are you using google translate?
