Steamed!

[Txmustangflyer]

This is, in no way, directed at Wayne, his crew at Aloft, his suppliers, or manufacturers of kits he distributes. Bear that in mind.
Now, I am freaking steamed. A guy posted pictures of his A6m 1/5th scale in flying giants after a wing structural failure at the retract saddle cost him a plane.
Now, I've been in and out of the hobby a number if times, and after the loss of my P38 some years ago, mainly stuck to ARF's simply because without my dad, long builds seemed tedious, boring and way too many chances to screw up.
Here's the issue in the ARF world. It's quite simply structure. They skimp on the airframe structure to save a buck..then, to add insult to injury, there is a complete and utter lack of any QC control in production. Stuff makes it to the consumer that never should have left the factory. Glue joints barely glued or not glued at all, missing parts, sometimes, missing formers. Bad sheeting joints, crap covering. Eggshell thin fiberglass with weak structure under it..I can keep going.
Gets even worse when a distributor like H9 or, Wayne even, has someone, independently, design a high quality air frame, contract it to an existing manufacturer for production, and the manufacturer proceeds to modify the design without consent. And then adds all the above into it as well.
Wayne, this is why our direct conversation has been happening. The kit manufacturers for the stick and ply kits struggle along with airframe that are quite good, until they just can't keep the doors open any more. That list is so long that if printed out would reach from one end of Aloft's building to the other.
I get it takes cash to develop, and import an ARF. But when are we going to stop buying and importing well designed, but badly implemented crap?
Sadly, if it doesn't change, the result will be the litigated death of this hobby in many forms. All it would take is one shoddy composite kit to suffer a similar structural failure and spin into a crowd full of kids. Or worse, a turbine. This hobby has been extremely lucky so far in that regard. Most accidents in rc aren't newsworthy enough for even local channels. But let the above happen. It would be international headlines. The rc'er, distributor, and manufacturer hung out to dry on the 6 o'clock news. Tried, found guilty and on their way to prison in the minds of most before its even assigned to a DA.
The gas rc side of this hobby is in such a deep rut, I dunno if it can be dug out. I do know that I can push, but I can't do it alone. The safety of this hobby is quite literally in our hands. If we keep letting poor quality kits on the market, sooner or later, a crash isn't going to just kill or injure 1 person, but 30, or 40.

My mustang will weigh around 30 lbs built. At WOT it could hit speeds of 80 mph plus. One wing failure due to a crap glue joint, it's now an 80 mph out of control, unguided bullet with a spinning knife on the front if it turning 6000 rpm.

I take that very damned serious. In my tool box is a an optical scope called a bore scope. It's made to send into rifle barrels to check the length of the bore. Guess what else it's used for, checking the insides if wings and fuselages. Bad glue, crap epoxy, and back it goes for replacement. I don't even mess with fixing it. If I fix it, who's going to retrain the guy doing the gluing at the factory?
Nobody.
We've gotten so used to not fighting the system that we just don't bother any more and they get away with it.
This guy is out 1200 for the ARF kit, plus all the associated stuff that was destroyed. Somewhere around 4k all in..think he can just run out and replace it? Nope. Think he'll want another one from same mfr? Nope. Least I wouldn't.

I'm nudging Wayne to check into an ARF available in Europe and Australia. Appears to be good quality (key word appears) and is heavy for a 1/5, heavy can translate to good construction. Videos show some of the assembly, support structure is double that commonly seen in composite ARFs for sale here. Good ply formers, lots of Hysol where it should be. Nice, clean lines.
It's the kind of kit I would expect at about a CARF price.
Everybody wants the next new thing, even if it's a Yugo and that's the problem.
We consumers need to wake up and speak, not with our mouths but with our checkbooks. Buy quality and let the others either sink or start to swim.
I dunno, maybe an upstart can open a contract build company. Purchase a stick and ply, ship to them, they build it out, cover it, box it up, and ship to owner for engine, servos, and electronics. Might be what it would take.

 

[Nigel]

Aloft is and remains primarily a glider shop. The planes there are vetted, along with the manufacturers. If you mean to imply that Aloft is "buying and importing well designed, but badly implemented crap" I would strongly disagree.

As for large scale ARF kits, that just isn't Aloft's thing. Not even considering the headache of importing those internationally.

"We've gotten so used to not fighting the system that we just don't bother any more and they get away with it" R & D happens. I don't know what else to tell you.

 

[Txmustangflyer]

Aloft is and remains primarily a glider shop. The planes there are vetted, along with the manufacturers. If you mean to imply that Aloft is "buying and importing well designed, but badly implemented crap" I would strongly disagree.

As for large scale ARF kits, that just isn't Aloft's thing. Not even considering the headache of importing those internationally.

"We've gotten so used to not fighting the system that we just don't bother any more and they get away with it" R & D happens. I don't know what else to tell you.

No, not at all and that's why first thing I said was that in no way, shape or form was this post aimed at Aloft, it's suppliers, or manufacturers.

I will, again, make that very clear. Aloft, Aloft suppliers, and the manufacturers of kits that Aloft sells are not, I repeat, not, the target of this post in any way, shape, form, or function.

I hope this dispells any notion of the kind.

This post is a pure vent, out of both, continued frustration felt by many in the gas warbird sector of the hobby, and the fact that it's probably not going to change.

Scale enthusiasts are treated almost like junkies. And the dealers are cutting the good "drug" with a bunch of junk to make their end cheaper but charging same price at retail.
There are guys having to fully uncover and unsheet ARF kits to attempt to fix things the factory never should have let out the building. Quality control is apparently a foreign concept. Things never used to be this way over all.

The bad part, is sooner or later, someone is going to take an ARF out of the box, servo it up, slap an engine in it, and go to an rc event. It's going to fold a wing or a stab and wipe out a bunch of spectators and it's him that will get sued. Not the mfr that let the kit out of the building with major structural problems, but him. The manufacturer is untouchable. They aren't anywhere near US jurisdiction.
I know Wayne vettes everything he sells, I know a lot of inspections are done at Aloft before things go out the door and I applaud you guys for it. It's why I do as much business as I can through you guys for supplies, etc, because the quality is there. Wayne refuses to sell junk and that's why I try to spend as much money as I can. I want him to stay in business.
As far as other companies and the crap they are importing. They need to follow Wayne's example. Inspect the kits when they come in, return them if crappy construction and tell the manufacturer if they want to continue distribution to fix the freaking problems.
There is zero excuse for shoddy construction. Zero.
A guy doing an H9 mustang had to deconstruct a brand new wing..half the ribs weren't glued to the main spar..it would have folded the wing faster than he could have got the gear up. He, luckily found it, but due to lack of replacements available, he can't get a replacement wing. And here I am, waiting on mine to ship and now dreading it at the same time.
If I miss one little thing...just one..it could mean a loss of plane, and 5 grand out of pocket.
Wayne gets it. He flies rc. He knows what this hobby costs. He, also, knows that nobody wants to lose a model after all the hard work, time, and money, due to shoddy design and manufacture.
It's why I have zero worries that everything I've ordered that came in an Aloft box is going to work, as advertised, and if there's a problem, Wayne will do what's needed to fix it, if it's something faulty.
I realize mistakes happen, a step occasionally missed during manufacturing. It happens, but when it is more the norm that things are missed then it's a problem that all distributors need to address as Wayne and his crew does.
In the hobby, anymore, Aloft has quickly become the exception to the norm, for me. Other distributors quality control checks before shipping to the consumer have become as non existent as they are at the point of manufacture and if it continues, this hobby is going to be litigated into oblivion at some point.

 

[Txmustangflyer]

To be honest, If it were to take two years for me to get the mustang, from today, I'd be irritated, but if I knew that when I unboxed the kit, the amount of repairs to address shoddy manufacturing would be near zero..It would be ok. I know that's not going to happen.
If all I had to worry about was getting my, particular parts to fit nicely, work as they should, and be reliable, I'd have no problem with that.
The idea of an ARF is just what I described. Little to no building. An ARF is supposed to come out of the box, ready for the power plant, servos, electronics and furl storage and transfer requirements, but today's "ARF" is a far cry from that. In.many ways they are worse than a scratch build in time and repairs.
There are guys with a certain brand Spitfire ARF that have spent 2 years fixing structural problems with the air frame. Engines and servos still sitting in boxes, untouched AFTER TWO YEARS. The manual stated average build time 14 hours. One guy has had to carefully and completely remove the composite skin on mist of the fuselage to properly replace formers that wouldn't even get close enough to the composite to be replaced near the horizontal stabs. He couldn't get in there any other way to fix it. He begged for a replacement fuselage. Can't get it. So it's either fix it, or trash it....1200 bucks for the airframe...fix it or trash it.
That's infuriating from a consumer standpoint. He's almost finished and has listed it for sale in an attempt to recoup some of the money. He's not bothering getting it flying or installing anything. He's remixing the ARF kit and selling it once it's all done.
Hes done sold all the rest of his planes and is quitting the hobby in disgust because of one ARF.
That's one less known potential customer.
Others have simply stopped buying, instead, choosing to stick with what they have..more lost customers, with exception of worn out servos and engines. If they crash one, they aren't replacing it.
In a few years, where does that leave the hobby? At a standstill. No manufacturers would survive. Distribution would be nonexistant and parts..dismal.
So these posts are a call. As consumers, we have to force a change to the status quo. If we don't it is the death of a hobby we all enjoy.

 

[Tahoed]

The solution is, "Don't buy ARF's. That way, if there is an issue, it's your own fault.

 

[Txmustangflyer]

Not all of us have the room for full builds.
I have other reasons too. But that's the big one. To enjoy this hobby, I have no choice but to use ARF kits. But, if quality does not improve, what's the point?

 

[Txmustangflyer]

I guess it's just frustrating when I see a hobby that once flourished in advancements of technology and design in a tail spin in a lot of respects. Wayne's glider customers are lucky and Aloft has made an impression in all categories as a top notch supplier of parts and kits.
But, as you all know. For me, this hobby gives me an outlet in a number of ways.
1. It allows me to fly. Something I have always wanted to do is get a pilots license, but, financially have never been able to achieve.
2. It allows me to keep alive, in a small part, society's memory of great men and women who served. Something that, as a veteran myself, is a top priority.
So the frustration at what we are basically forced to settle for in scale rc is huge.
It does, however, give Aloft, or someone with Aloft's ethics an opening to not only make a profit, but effect change and for the better.
In an ongoing conversation with Wayne behind the scenes of the forum, I can say that, within the financial limitations he has, Wayne is trying to do just that. He's open to ideas and I've tossed a few in the air and let him snag the ones he thinking of pursuing.
Not all my ideas are good ones, but hey, sometimes out if bad ideas, good ones rise.
I have, yet, to get him nudged enough to import a good ARF kit I've found down under. Not only does it look to be high quality, but it's also a very desirable plane for many. The threads started looking for it in that scale on three different forums are a full page each.
But they would have to be imported, based on orders with deposits, in quantity to get the price close. I keep nudging..

 

[Tahoed]

Maybe it's time for you to look a bit closer at sailplanes. I can assemble a 3 meter (of which the majority don't come from China, and have no foam to deal with) on the kitchen counter. For me, scale warbirds are neat to build and look at, but a bit boring to fly, especially the foam ones. To each his own. The fact that there are so many directions to go in this hobby is what makes it great. Life is like a roll of toilet paper and many of us are getting to the end of the roll, so get out there and do something.

 

[Txmustangflyer]

I don't do foam either lol..but where you see boring, I see history. But there we delve into another kind of issue is pretty much all manufacturers are replicating the same planes, the same liveries, for the same pilots when there were thousands that flew in all major wars.
It's no easy task to completely change a paint or covering scheme.
I'm attempting a small change on mine, but at the same time, staying within the general color scheme of the planes Hanger 9 chose to replicate so I don't have to redo the whole thing.
It's another thing I don't get, and mist of the people that fly scale warbirds agree.
There were a lot more mustangs flying than Glamorous Glenn's, Gunfighter, and Gentleman Jim. Yes, they were the top aces in the P51, but that makes other pilot's contribution to the war effort no less important. Those three could not have become the top 3 if there weren't guys covering their six over Europe.
That's why I flybscale warbirds, to remember them. Why I spend 40 bucks a plane at Callie Graphics to change the names on the planes, with currect numbering. To remember the guys like Will Faord who were nearly killed protecting Chuck Yeagar and Bud Anderson as their kill counts rose. It wasn't just their skills, but the skills of their wingman too.
Those memories have to live. If we remember their stories and understand why they did what they did, then history, itself, won't repeat.
Today, it's even more important, given recent events in this country.
Don't get me wrong. You guys that fly sail planes have my respect, despite the jokes I make. It takes skill to fly without any means of power other air currents and wind. It's just not the sort of thing that checks off the boxes for me.
I need the sound of an engine, the roar of a prop slicing air and the sleek lines of a warbird..it's a craving. When a warbird gets to that point where, at the right camera angle, people wonder if it's the real thing or a scale model happens..then I know I've done the job I set out to do. Even with an ARF saving a lot of build time, that job won't be complete until well down the road. A quality ARF makes it possible, one that disintegrates because of poor design or poor manufacturing never gets there.
When my mustang is flying, it still won't be done. I may never call it done. It will always be revisited for improvement to get it as close to dead on scale as I can get.
We're talking, at first recover, glassing the fuselage and wings, rivet details, panel lines, all the visible wiring when the landing gear doors are open, hydraulic lines, and so on. In its life it may have 4 different schemes. Ordinance releases and so on.
It may sound crazy to some, but when you are trying to recreate a scale aircraft representing a historical one...it never stops. This first stage is almost a prototype stage. Mainly getting everything working, balanced, and flying. Then the real work starts. The goal, in the end, being if the full scale aircraft is sitting right next to the model there is little difference between the two, other than the cylinder of that model's engine sticking out the bottom of the cowl a little. Every scratch, patch, dent, and worn spot, replicated just as it was on its last flight in combat.
Yes, for some, that's boring. I get that. To me, it's reliving history and keeping it alive so new generations understand.

 

[Hank]

I just recently finished assembling a giant ARF made by a reputable American company. Since it is an older design, it was set up for a heavy old style gas engine. Instead I ended up using a modern lightweight gas engine. That caused the assembly to end up as a new build. In some ways it was more work than a fresh kit build. In the process of assembly, the plane with the engine installed fell off the workbench (long story). As a result, the engine with the firewall broke off the fuselage. After looking it over, I noticed that the firewall was glued on by a wimpy thin glue, not epoxy. So in a way, I was glad this plane fell off the workbench now and not while flying.
But to be honest, I enjoy building and flying small glow kits much more than assembling giant ARFs. I have kit built 2 1/12 scale combat planes and have two more in backlog. The 2 I already built are an ME109 and the other is a P39 Airacobra. The other two future builds are a P47 and a FW190. I build them without landing gear and they fly awesome. I belly land them on grass.
These to me are vastly more satisfying and fun than giant ARFs.
I think the whole concept of ARF/PNP/RTF is not sustainable in the long run because of price/quality/legal/liability/etc...

 

[Txmustangflyer]

I just recently finished assembling a giant ARF made by a reputable American company. Since it is an older design, it was set up for a heavy old style gas engine. Instead I ended up using a modern lightweight gas engine. That caused the assembly to end up as a new build. In some ways it was more work than a fresh kit build. In the process of assembly, the plane with the engine installed fell off the workbench (long story). As a result, the engine with the firewall broke off the fuselage. After looking it over, I noticed that the firewall was glued on by a wimpy thin glue, not epoxy. So in a way, I was glad this plane fell off the workbench now and not while flying.
But to be honest, I enjoy building and flying small glow kits much more than assembling giant ARFs. I have kit built 2 1/12 scale combat planes and have two more in backlog. The 2 I already built are an ME109 and the other is a P39 Airacobra. The other two future builds are a P47 and a FW190. I build them without landing gear and they fly awesome. I belly land them on grass.
These to me are vastly more satisfying and fun than giant ARFs.
I think the whole concept of ARF/PNP/RTF is not sustainable in the long run because of price/quality/legal/liability/etc...

I agree, somewhat, but ARF's have been around a while. Your experience is kind of a case in point. Poor manufacturing techniques. Firewall should have been Hysol'd in, not CA or light epoxy.

on the other hand, ARF's have been around in one form or another for a long time. Before there were commercially available ARF kits, there were those who got paid to simply build a kit for someone..that still goes on, it seems. I may look at that for the "next plane" instead of going the usual route. Depends on cost..but thats what it boils down to. It all comes back to dollars and cents. Most of us are middle class, blue collar types with incomes ranging from 30,000 to 80,000 dollars, we have kids, mortgages, car payments, college funds for said kids, and, in some cases, student loans to pay. We can't afford to go out and buy 4 planes a year, build them all, and go flying. Most of us don't fly competition, we fly recreational..for the most part.

So when we spend money on an ARF, it needs to count..it can't be flimsy, it needs to be well designed, well built, and worth the money..the issue is, stuff thats sold isn't worth what the retailers are asking for them. the Hanger 9 is almost an exception, but not quite there. Its close, but there are still some pretty glaring issues with the construction, evident as soon as you get it out of the box and unwrapped.

It boils down to, if I'm going to drop a week's paycheck on an ARF kit, it best be worth that week's labor for that money or it shouldn't be bought..guess I'm a bit old school in that thinking. Most of the composite kits aren't worth what is charged for a balsa/ply/iron on covered ARF and the latter is usually cheaper but are typically stronger.

I dunno..maybe I'm doing the proverbial peeing in the wind.

 

[Wayne]

This is one of the reasons I tend to stay with the things we know. We usually bring in samples and build and fly them before we offer them on our site. A percentage of products we sample do not make it onto our site. We are always honest with the manufacturer and tell them what we found and what we suggest to improve the products. Their responses really tells us a lot about the manufacturer. Often times they have no interest in improving a poor performing product. This is a manufacturer we will steer clear of in the future. (Funny thing is some of these companies are rather successful in the market simply because they offer a low price and have fancy looking graphics.) On a rare occasion the manufacturer will want to work with us and improve their products. This is a company we are excited to work with!

The problem with the ARF market is pretty simple one. The cost of labor. The main reason people want to buy an ARF is to avoid the large time commitment to gain the skills and build a quality plane. The same is true from the manufacturing side, they do not want to pay for the labor and skills investment to produce a high quality model. So, if the customer is not willing to pay, and the manufacturer is not willing to pay.. Ultimately many people buy based on value. This is why horrible companies like FlyFly continue to exist and make horrible scale(ish) gliders, they sell them dirt cheap, and people love them for it, but then complain when the wings fail in flight, etc. FlyFly has some some of the lowest quality I have ever seen in the business, yet they seem to thrive in the market. Their build threads are very popular on other forums. I am amazed when someone will comment that they have bought more than one of those piles. Maybe they are better now, but what I have seen, they are still making garbage.

Trust me there are many companies like this out there.

We were very close to bringing in a lot of ARF foam models for this holiday season, but we had so many QC concerns that I simply could not risk it. I know we would do well selling foam models, but they need to work out of the box. Between high shipping costs and QC risk, simply not worth it for Aloft at this time.

In the end we like to sell things we understand, and that we are proud of. Many places will sell anything they can get their hands on.

 

[Hank]

Txmustangflyer,
After you pay someone to custom build you a couple of big warbirds you could almost have a workshop built.

Maybe not peeing into the wind, maybe whipping a dead horse.

 

[Txmustangflyer]

Yeah, thats true Hank, but even if they are just building the airframe, not installing the electronics, engine etc..I think the quality of the build would be such I wouldn't have to worry about a wing folding in flight. but, if you figure a stick and wood kit, average 200 to 400 bucks, plus paying the builder..come out about the same as buying a CARF ARF so...yup..would I do that for say..a Zirolli P38 or mustang..you damned skippy. Thats what ARF manufacturers don't get. If they put out a high quality ARF, most of us scale guys would pay a high quality ARF price..thats why CARF is still around. Their P51 ARF at 1/4.5 is a beauty. will take just about any inline multicylinder engine and flies like its on rails. Its just too big for my space and transport capabilities. So,,couldn't go that route..but man I wish I could have. It wasn't the cost..just the size. Same goes for the rest of their line up. As it is..the wife's trainer is gonna have to ride in her lap on the way to the field and back just so it don't ding the mustang. Trust me..she is not happy in that regard..at all. LOL so yeah..I'd pay 3 grand to a builder to do the balsa and ply for a zirolli..if I had the room to store it when not flying and transport it to go fly it..Therein lies the break between quality and crappy..is the scale. All the high quality stuff is 1/4.5 scale and up. all the fodder is 1/5 and below it seems. Guess next year I'll just have to break down and buy a good trailer..I dunno or find a good used uhaul truck for sale LOL

A lot of good companies, that do quality work, started out making products to order..one man band type operations in their garage. DA started that way, I think. Just a few manual machines, and time. Their first engines, IMO were some of the best. Their engines now aren't bad either..you could just see that he loved what he did in those first ones and took the time to make them as best as he could.

Glen at RCstands is another example. One man at first, now, employs 6 and had to move to a 6000 sq ft building just to have the room to produce all the models to order. He just added a new model called the mega floor stand for the RC turbine crowd..their birds can way up to 100 lbs.

Aloft is another example..probably started out with just Wayne, now Aloft is a household name in the RC world. You mention aloft on any forum and so far..never seen a complaint..I think its the candy bribing them..pretty sure of it actually...

I correspond with a guy in russia, designer, trying to break out into the rc world now. worked for a different rc company in russia, did a plane for local sale to generate revenue and started on his first big project..one I'm very interested in. I may have a potential distributor lined up for him if a deal can be struck when his kit is ready.

Its those type of guys that are willing to work hard to get a break that I watch for..usually their first ones are their best work. They want to impress the crowd and make a name.

After their first is when I usually see the start of a decline in quality as they expand to keep up but not always.

Again, Aloft is a prime example. Wayne now has a very good staff. They each seem to concentrate on a certain area of expertise and Wayne knows his people. No, Aloft isn't Tower hobbies. But, Tower doesn't provide near as good support or customer service as Wayne does. He's small enough that that personal experience isn't lost. From what I read and have experienced myself, people who have walked in the door are treated well just like I am treated online. As a result, I really hope that I get the chance to walk in that door someday just to shake some hands..and try to convert them to the noisy, dark side, of course LOL

Txmustangflyer,
After you pay someone to custom build you a couple of big warbirds you could almost have a workshop built.

Maybe not peeing into the wind, maybe whipping a dead horse.

 

[Chris]

Yeah, thats true Hank, but even if they are just building the airframe, not installing the electronics, engine etc..I think the quality of the build would be such I wouldn't have to worry about a wing folding in flight. but, if you figure a stick and wood kit, average 200 to 400 bucks, plus paying the builder..come out about the same as buying a CARF ARF so...yup..would I do that for say..a Zirolli P38 or mustang..you damned skippy. Thats what ARF manufacturers don't get. If they put out a high quality ARF, most of us scale guys would pay a high quality ARF price..thats why CARF is still around. Their P51 ARF at 1/4.5 is a beauty. will take just about any inline multicylinder engine and flies like its on rails. Its just too big for my space and transport capabilities. So,,couldn't go that route..but man I wish I could have. It wasn't the cost..just the size. Same goes for the rest of their line up. As it is..the wife's trainer is gonna have to ride in her lap on the way to the field and back just so it don't ding the mustang. Trust me..she is not happy in that regard..at all. LOL so yeah..I'd pay 3 grand to a builder to do the balsa and ply for a zirolli..if I had the room to store it when not flying and transport it to go fly it..Therein lies the break between quality and crappy..is the scale. All the high quality stuff is 1/4.5 scale and up. all the fodder is 1/5 and below it seems. Guess next year I'll just have to break down and buy a good trailer..I dunno or find a good used uhaul truck for sale LOL

A lot of good companies, that do quality work, started out making products to order..one man band type operations in their garage. DA started that way, I think. Just a few manual machines, and time. Their first engines, IMO were some of the best. Their engines now aren't bad either..you could just see that he loved what he did in those first ones and took the time to make them as best as he could.

Glen at RCstands is another example. One man at first, now, employs 6 and had to move to a 6000 sq ft building just to have the room to produce all the models to order. He just added a new model called the mega floor stand for the RC turbine crowd..their birds can way up to 100 lbs.

Aloft is another example..probably started out with just Wayne, now Aloft is a household name in the RC world. You mention aloft on any forum and so far..never seen a complaint..I think its the candy bribing them..pretty sure of it actually...

I correspond with a guy in russia, designer, trying to break out into the rc world now. worked for a different rc company in russia, did a plane for local sale to generate revenue and started on his first big project..one I'm very interested in. I may have a potential distributor lined up for him if a deal can be struck when his kit is ready.

Its those type of guys that are willing to work hard to get a break that I watch for..usually their first ones are their best work. They want to impress the crowd and make a name.

After their first is when I usually see the start of a decline in quality as they expand to keep up but not always.

Again, Aloft is a prime example. Wayne now has a very good staff. They each seem to concentrate on a certain area of expertise and Wayne knows his people. No, Aloft isn't Tower hobbies. But, Tower doesn't provide near as good support or customer service as Wayne does. He's small enough that that personal experience isn't lost. From what I read and have experienced myself, people who have walked in the door are treated well just like I am treated online. As a result, I really hope that I get the chance to walk in that door someday just to shake some hands..and try to convert them to the noisy, dark side, of course LOL

One of us here is already running the Stinkys. And I am interested, but trying to learn a few things before investing too much.
I think I am leaning toward the vintage stuff though... Some of it is pretty cool
BUT, If its an airplane, I like it.

 

[Txmustangflyer]

One of us here is already running the Stinkys. And I am interested, but trying to learn a few things before investing too much.
I think I am leaning toward the vintage stuff though... Some of it is pretty cool
BUT, If its an airplane, I like it.

So..something like a bi-plane? Say a Sopwith, or a Fokker, WWI Era?

The guy to talk to would be Mick Reeves in the UK if you want scale flight, and so on. He was a Euro champion in RC when he was younger, his son has followed in his foot steps. Also the designer of the torquemaster gear reduction drives for giant scale WWI rc based on...the G62, although it might could be possible to adapt to other engines. There are also a number of reduction drives for electrics too..to get a WWI to scale speeds.
Similar concept was used on the Byron P51 a while back also with G62s..I think.
Lots of nice WWI kits..and if you dig hard enough..some nice ARF's as well.
Www.Mickreevesmodels.co.uk

 

[Hank]

For me, I like my planes to fly well and built well. But I am not a scale guy, so most of your requirements/expectations I can live without. Also, I know that a bigger plane usually flies better than a small one for the same level of quality and design. But I also don't like giant size planes due to the inconvenience of building, storage, and transportation. So my ultimate size is 60 c.i. (10cc) even though I have a couple of big gassers (20cc and 40cc) and several smaller ones. Looking back, I really only want one big gasser for those windy days.
Regarding factory ARF vs. individual craftsman builds, what I think it boils down to is whether the builder enjoys the work, cares about the results, and is skilled enough. That doesn't always translate to $$$$, but as a general rule, it does. But being that I am, along with many others, such a cheapskate, bad ARFs exist.
Sorry!!!

 

[Txmustangflyer]

Yeah..but as bad ARF's go, it's not really the design that's bad..it's the manufacturing. It's like there's zero Quality control anywhere in the chain until you unbox it.
That's the sad part is great designs have been brought down by poor workmanship. ESM could be good planes..if the factory paid attention to what went put the door and made an effort.
What scares me rhe most is the 17 or 18 yr old kid, doing his first big plane and not knowing what to look for. Gets it all together, heads to the field and a joint that was supposed to be epoxied or Hysol'd was just CA'd or not glued at all at a critical pint..like the sheer webbing in the wing. It folds and kills half his or some one else's family there to watch.
That's what I fear.
I'm a truck driver, and even if it wasn't my fault, ruled an unpreventable accident, but someone died...I dunno if I could get behind the wheel again. If something like I described had happened anywhere near me at that age, I wouldn't be here now.
Thing is, in our society today, if it was a don't know better, innocent bystander that died, or multiple, the kid would be in jail, charged with manslaughter and facing prison, add to that wrongful death suit. Just because he didn't know to check a critical glue joint that should have been done on the production line. If Ford did that kind of work, they wouldn't be in business. Or Chevy, Whirlpool, you name it. The American consumer wouldn't stand for it, but we're willing to stand for it for something that ends up costing as much as 3 new sets of top end washers and dryers?
I just don't get it.