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Slope Flying Wings.

Hmmm is aft swept the same as "raked" ?

1684423087025.png

"
Raked wingtips are more efficient in ULTRA LONG cruise segments. Whereas other wingtip treatments like winglets are more efficient in climb. Winglets do reduce drag, but they actually generate a bit of lift due to the way in which wingtip vortices strike the leading edges of the winglet…but that only happens to a significant degree when the wing is at higher angles of attack….like in climb configurations. Aircraft with winglets are shorter range…like the 737. It makes more sense and saves more fuel to optimize the climb and approach segments than it does to try to optimize the cruise phase of the flight. That might seem counter-intuitive, but Boeing engineers proved the math.


Raked wingtips on the other hand don’t generate lift…what they do is reduce drag in a special way…by redirecting wingtip drag (vortices) farther outboard and aft of the rest of the wing… and it also redistributes the lift across the entire wing (called wing loading). The result is that they work in ultra long cruise segments. They don’t depend on wing angle of attack, and they reduce fuel consumption when engine power is already set to cruise.

Short answer is winglets and raked tips both reduce drag and extend the range of an aircraft. But they do it in different ways…and which way is best depends mostly as a function of cruise flight time."
 
Having a vortex at the wing tips is a really good thing -

Doc.
Ahem....BSLD. Just needling you of course. What you have said about is true for ESLD.

For BSLD since the vortex sheds early, the tip is in upwash, spanwise flow is constrained and tip shape becomes much less important. Control surface shape seems to be more dominant in our research. Not suggesting you change anything, just offering an alternate perspective for those who might be curious.

Red
 
Bell Shaped Lift Distribution = BSLD (See Horton and Prandtl )
Elliptical Shaped Lift Distribution = ESLD (See Prandtl’s earlier writings)

How these theories deal with the vortex is fundamentally different. Not saying which is right or wrong just that they are different in addressing the control and drag parts of lift.


Sorry, I just realized whose thread this was. Please disregard this post.
 
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Ahem....BSLD. Just needling you of course. What you have said about is true for ESLD.

For BSLD since the vortex sheds early, the tip is in upwash, spanwise flow is constrained and tip shape becomes much less important. Control surface shape seems to be more dominant in our research. Not suggesting you change anything, just offering an alternate perspective for those who might be curious.

Red
Yes I am sure you are right there, Red.

I have to be honest in that I'm only just creeping into understanding BSLD - in some ways its a bit like Quantum Mechanics - all the old physics stuff seems not to fit quite as well as it did.:eek:

I have never had a BSLD model of any type in a wind tunnel - though I might have a go at it if I can. But the BSLD might be my next foray - Its so damned tempting! :cool::p

So yes - this is all ESLD practical results.

Cheers,

Doc.
 
What is BSLD and ESLD?
BSLD = Bell-Shaped Lift Distributon.
ESLD = Elliptical-Shaped Lift Distribution

BSLD:ESLD.png


Both BSLD and ESLD were theories proposed and by Ludwig Prandtl in the early 1900's.

For some obscure reason the ESLD theory was widely adopted and became the 'norm' - if you will for wing design, while the now re-emerging BSLD was largely forgotten.

How? Why?

NASA Chief Scientist, Al Bowers, ably assisted by a keen group of Students and of course a guiding practical influence in the form of Red Jensen; dug out, kicked and punched this old forgotten idea into life until it surprisingly - in the eyes (and brains) of many - was actually proved not only to be true, but actually benficial to the design of wings - in theory any wing, but especially the solo flying wing.

So what can BSLD give us?

Adverse yaw - an old opponent of (ESLD) flying wings can be reversed to actually give PRO-verse yaw, while with the correct shaped trailing edge and angular distribution of wing sections, BSLD can also generate induced THRUST (!) and those ideas, had you suggested them many years ago to hoary old exponents like myself, would frankly have been unbelievable.

Almost magically the need for vertical stabilisation diminishes to the extent that you really can design and build a flying wing with no fins - another astounding benefit.

Don't get all bent out of shape:

What is the first thing you do when you pick up a model plane - any plane, flying wing or a conventional model? Yep, thats it, you squint along the trailing edges to make sure they are straight and true. Well, don't do that with a BSLD designed model. Rather like looking at a modern airliner from directly in front or behind - the trailing egdes of the wings will be anything but straight and true.

Screen Shot 2023-05-19 at 7.20.08 AM.png


A quick internet search will reveal quite a lot of papers that have suddenly sprung up like mushrooms almost overnight, following publication of the Bowers/Jensen study and so now information is readily avaialble; but I do recommend reading and understanding of the orginal NASA publications for a really good grounding first.

And there you have it.

Doc.
 
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Yes I am sure you are right there, Red.

I have to be honest in that I'm only just creeping into understanding BSLD - in some ways its a bit like Quantum Mechanics - all the old physics stuff seems not to fit quite as well as it did.:eek:

I have never had a BSLD model of any type in a wind tunnel - though I might have a go at it if I can. But the BSLD might be my next foray - Its so damned tempting! :cool::p

So yes - this is all ESLD practical results.

Cheers,

Doc.
I have tunnel data for a 6' BSLD model. Let me find out if its shareable!
 
BSLD = Bell-Shaped Lift Distributon.
ESLD = Elliptical-Shaped Lift Distribution

View attachment 15397

Both BSLD and ESLD were theories proposed and by Ludwig Prandtl in the early 1900's.

For some obscure reason the ESLD theory was widely adopted and became the 'norm' - if you will for wing design, while the now re-emerging BSLD was largely forgotten.

How? Why?

NASA Chief Scientist, Al Bowers, ably assisted by a keen group of Students and of course a guiding practical influence in the form of Red Jensen; dug out, kicked and punched this old forgotten idea into life until it surprisingly - in the eyes (and brains) of many - was actually proved not only to be true, but actually benficial to the design of wings - in theory any wing, but especially the solo flying wing.

So what can BSLD give us?

Adverse yaw - an old opponent of (ESLD) flying wings can be reversed to actually give PRO-verse yaw while with the correct shaped trailing edge and angular distrubution of wing sections, can also generate induced THRUST (!) and those ideas, had you suggested them many years ago to hoary old exponents like myself, would frankly have been unbelievable.

Almost magically the need for vertical stabilisation diminishes to the extent that you really can design and build a flying wing with no fins - another astounding benefit.

Don't get all bent out of shape:

What is the first thing you do when you pick up a model plane - any plane, flying wing or a conventional model? Yep, thats it, you squint along the trailing edges to make sure they are straight and true. Well, don't do that with a BSLD designed model. Rather like looking at a modern airliner from directly in front or behind - the trailing egdes of the wings will be anything but straight and true.

View attachment 15398

A quick internet search will reveal quite a lot of papers that have suddenly spring up like mushrooms almost overnight, following publication of the Bowers/Jensen study and so now information is readily avaialble; but I do recommend reading and understanding of the orginal NASA publications for a really good grounding first.

And there you have it.

Doc.
You can add to that far less risk of stall/spin issues since the outer 30% of the span carries very little load. So in a non coordinated stall event, the likely hood of dropping a wing is almost zero. Couple that with demonstrated aileron effectiveness post stall roll control (corroborated by aforementioned tunnel data) aileron opposite the dropped wing will in fact pick it up, not exacerbate the situation, you have a very well behaved aircraft. I brought a BSLD model that I built for a friend who I had hoped to bring it to Sunset, but he had to work. It will be at Banos though. Doc, if you come I'll send you home with a 32" span molded model.

Now the $64,000 question, if this is "magic" why don't we see it everywhere? The short answer is, it is not the perfect solution as there are a few constraints. If you are span limited, ESLD is better, BSLD yields roughly 22% more span for the same Cl and root bending moment. so 2M etc. classes ESLD will likely be better. Which brings up the next point. BSLD is the minimum drag solution (by some 11%!) if a. you are not span constrained, & b. designed for the same structural weight. That means for a given say 10 lb. wing, the BSLD wing should weight the same, be 22% greater in span and have the same root bending strain.

So it is a nuanced solution to be sure. We have only scratched the surface, it's up to some clever designer to capitalize on the benefits. I've built some 60+ models from 13" to 25' span over about a dozen major design changes, so I'm done haha.

Sorry to hijack your thread Doc. I'll like our two papers though for anyone who would like to read them.

Now back to your regularly scheduled DarkStar programming. :cool:

Red
 

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You can add to that far less risk of stall/spin issues since the outer 30% of the span carries very little load. So in a non coordinated stall event, the likely hood of dropping a wing is almost zero. Couple that with demonstrated aileron effectiveness post stall roll control (corroborated by aforementioned tunnel data) aileron opposite the dropped wing will in fact pick it up, not exacerbate the situation, you have a very well behaved aircraft. I brought a BSLD model that I built for a friend who I had hoped to bring it to Sunset, but he had to work. It will be at Banos though. Doc, if you come I'll send you home with a 32" span molded model.

Now the $64,000 question, if this is "magic" why don't we see it everywhere? The short answer is, it is not the perfect solution as there are a few constraints. If you are span limited, ESLD is better, BSLD yields roughly 22% more span for the same Cl and root bending moment. so 2M etc. classes ESLD will likely be better. Which brings up the next point. BSLD is the minimum drag solution (by some 11%!) if a. you are not span constrained, & b. designed for the same structural weight. That means for a given say 10 lb. wing, the BSLD wing should weight the same, be 22% greater in span and have the same root bending strain.

So it is a nuanced solution to be sure. We have only scratched the surface, it's up to some clever designer to capitalize on the benefits. I've built some 60+ models from 13" to 25' span over about a dozen major design changes, so I'm done haha.

Sorry to hijack your thread Doc. I'll like our two papers though for anyone who would like to read them.

Now back to your regularly scheduled DarkStar programming. :cool:

Red
Just excellent. More great information from a person as close to the source as it gets.

This is exactly how it should be - I am all for anything that will further the understanding of the folks reading these posts - Especially ME! :ROFLMAO:

Hope the Wind tunnel stuff is sharable...wow!

A model to take home? Holy Proverse yaw Batman! I'll be at Banos!, I'll be at Banos!

You guys are all going to sleep now, but for me, 10,000 miles and wide awake away, with this kind of start - it's a good day to have a great day!

(Love the use of the massive battery "payload" noseweight!)

Doc.
 
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Watch what you ask for.. hint hint. (but far better)
It is not yet public knowledge but we will have a full line of advanced flying wings, we are currently working on the tooling for the smallest with a span a little over 1 meter. Let's just say they are impressive.
 
Watch what you ask for.. hint hint. (but far better)
It is not yet public knowledge but we will have a full line of advanced flying wings, we are currently working on the tooling for the smallest with a span a little over 1 meter. Let's just say they are impressive.
Foam, or of a more conventinal modeling material? I mean balsa!
 
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