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Should control horns in new models be preinstalled - or not?
- Thread starter Doc J
- Start date
Hill Hobbit
Very Strong User
None of the European manufacturers of the very fast, very heavy and very aerobatic Swifts and the like either use or even recommend IDS type control surface linkages. Also maybe have a think about why Spencer L. and co don’t use IDS.
Konrad
Very Strong User
As stated the larger arms are more tolerant of wear.
I couldn't find the post where I showed how I manufactured the hybrid push rod. So I opened up one of my Schwing Corsa 108 wings to take a photo of this configuration. Yikes!, I'm glad I did, as you can see I failed to add the support sleeve. (Thanks to this thread I'll have saved my favorite sport slope glider)!
I also don't like the use of staked clevis pins as these make it difficult to enter the horn square. This results in noticeable wear in the classic control horn or servo arm after about the 4th insertion.
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Going 500 mph is a different application than what normal human beings fly in the hobby. LOL
Doc J
Very Strong User
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Doc J
Very Strong User
Hi Wayne - Typo: Your internet Vassal got Pierre's name wrong. Rondel, not Rondell.What I would love to see if a fully installed IDS spoon in a fully moulded wing.
This is exactly what we did with the new Quantum F3X gliders.
Quantum 2 DP Electric Glider - W/ IDS installed
3 Meters of Electric Fun! Here's what the manufacturer has to say about their plane design. The Quantum 2 DP electro model uses the same support surfaces and V-tail as the Quantum F3F/ F3B version. Although the fuselage is designed to be very slim, it can easily hold up to 4S Lipo. The diameter...alofthobbies.com
Quantum 2 DP F3F/F3B with IDS installed
The Quantum 2 DP was created in collaboration with Dirk Pflug and Pierre Rondell. According to Dirk, the objective was not to replace the original Quantum, but to set slightly different priorities: Thus, the glide ratio with neutral flap was improved in the speed range of 20-40 m/sec, which is...alofthobbies.com
Actually we did more. The entire plane is setup for the servos, just drop them into the trays. Yes, this costs more to have done.
Cheers,
Doc
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Doc J
Very Strong User
My ambition is to try to do 'drop in' models like this, but not now.What I would love to see if a fully installed IDS spoon in a fully moulded wing.
This is exactly what we did with the new Quantum F3X gliders.
Quantum 2 DP Electric Glider - W/ IDS installed
3 Meters of Electric Fun! Here's what the manufacturer has to say about their plane design. The Quantum 2 DP electro model uses the same support surfaces and V-tail as the Quantum F3F/ F3B version. Although the fuselage is designed to be very slim, it can easily hold up to 4S Lipo. The diameter...Quantum 2 DP F3F/F3B with IDS installed
The Quantum 2 DP was created in collaboration with Dirk Pflug and Pierre Rondell. According to Dirk, the objective was not to replace the original Quantum, but to set slightly different priorities: Thus, the glide ratio with neutral flap was improved in the speed range of 20-40 m/sec, which is...
Actually we did more. The entire plane is setup for the servos, just drop them into the trays. Yes, this costs more to have done.
Just for the input, I am completely sure that this is the mst advanced, and potentially the fastest F3f model currenty available.
Cheers,
Doc.
Doc J
Very Strong User
I think that is a very wise statement, Wayne. Oh so true.
But just from the aeros, side by side with other F3f designs, in the same conditions, the model should be faster than anything else out there, even with me at the controls (!) Hard hats on!
Why?
People are finally figuring out that the wings are by far the most important part of any slope design (Wow what a revelation!) especially for racing, and that putting the lift where it works, and only there will give the best results. Its like the difefrence between an English medieval broadsword, and the curved razor sharp elegance of a Japanese Katana - which one do you think is going to cut off your head the easiest?
There are parts of the Quantum wing design that I wouldn't use, having tested (My stuff only) extensively - but then a) I have never flown this model, b) maybe the magnum guys don't have access to real-time quantitive (Sorry) testing, and c) I do know from long experience that sometimes unlikely combinations that you think SHOULDN'T work - actually do.
Pierre is an old friend and quite obviously a really good pilot - he has that incredible hand to eye coordination that makes flying look so efortless and elegant and he wins by economy of flight. He doesn't make loads of draggy excessive control inputs, because he doesn't have to - the bugger!
I love it.
Doc.
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Doc J
Very Strong User
Jerry Kirwan
New User
Gentlemen,
I am having issues transitioning between 'normal' (Jets & 40%) aircraft & gliders with 'very short' control horns. Compounding this is the extreme movement of the flaps. I am concerned with using >90% of the available servo travel.
This is the last step I have to complete the build. I have graphed out the surface movement relating to servo movement prior to installing the control arms. The first measurement is the hinge line to the hole. Next is servo arm length trying to keep the arm either inside or outside the wing skin trying to avoid cutting the skin.
I am dealing with bottom-hinged composite surfaces. The 2 kits I am dealing with do not have even a minimal instruction manual discussing this subject.
Does anybody have any thoughts?
I am having issues transitioning between 'normal' (Jets & 40%) aircraft & gliders with 'very short' control horns. Compounding this is the extreme movement of the flaps. I am concerned with using >90% of the available servo travel.
This is the last step I have to complete the build. I have graphed out the surface movement relating to servo movement prior to installing the control arms. The first measurement is the hinge line to the hole. Next is servo arm length trying to keep the arm either inside or outside the wing skin trying to avoid cutting the skin.
I am dealing with bottom-hinged composite surfaces. The 2 kits I am dealing with do not have even a minimal instruction manual discussing this subject.
Does anybody have any thoughts?
Konrad
Very Strong User
Have you looked at wide jelly bean servo covers? Did you set up the spoon geometry per the servorahmen instructions? Note the spoon pivot is placed a bit forward of the hinge to help account the 3 point line issue at full flap deployment. And yes I strive for about 120% servo rotation to keep the servo arm short as possible and to gain as much servo power and resolution.
Jerry Kirwan
New User
Konrad,
I have seen 'spoons' mentioned, but I do not fully understand the term besides relating to ice cream. I have been studying before i undertake the task, which is the reason for asking here.
I have seen 'spoons' mentioned, but I do not fully understand the term besides relating to ice cream. I have been studying before i undertake the task, which is the reason for asking here.
Doc J
Very Strong User
Jerry are you using IDS?
The advantage is that the IDS mechanical system is a lot better than the 'normal' servo setups used for gliders with larger servo movements. There is some small aerodynamic difference using IDS 'spoons ', but its so small as to be negligable on a glider wing.
IDS will work fine with no spoons and is used a lot in that configuration in Europe.
Doc.
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Konrad
Very Strong User
External servo bearing support is a good idea for ether IDS or conventional control horn geometry. They are imperative when using IDS as any radial displacement of the servo output will have exaggerated effects with the small movements involved. Real IDS are more critical of clearance issue with the hinge, pivot pins, and gear back lash. The real IDS is highly dependent on the quality and craftsmanship of the installation; the classic control horn not so much.
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