Should control horns in new models be preinstalled - or not?

[Doc J]

Hi Guys,
I have had a few requests from various parts of the globe requesting me NOT to install control horns, as the new owners of the model wanted to use IDS.

I am frankly not sure as time passes whether the move towards IDS indicates that the models should now be left intact with no control horns or perhaps just with the conrol horns supplied but not fitted?.

The only reason we do install the horns is because it can make it easier/faster for the owner to build the controls. Also some of the newer people don't actually know that there is a difference in flap Vs the aileron control horn angle and position.

So...what do you fine and highly experienced Gentlemen think?

Tell it unto me.

Many thanks,

Doc

 

[Wayne]

As you know I prefer the expensive models do not include installed horns. In fact now that I think of it, I think your models are the ONLYY ones that come with any control horns. That goes for any sort of glider.. thermal, slope, foam, wood or composite. Only ARF airframes comes with horns (and servos) installed.

 

[Jerry Kirwan]

Let me give you my perspective, being new to gliders. I am a long-time builder vs an assembler BTW. I am confident an experienced Glider Pilot may have a preferred system they want to use so in that case leaving this open would be their choice. I have a considerable amount of time trying to figure out throws and arm length for the unusual configuration of wing geometry on a glider. I am currently working on my first Carbon glider and am apprehensive about gluing immovable items into my very thin wing. (See my post in the Cubic 3.4 thread) The LDS system looks to be well-engineered but I am afraid my wing may be tooo thin for it to function properly.

The bottom line, include a comprehensive kit with all the components for a workable system. Or A least a list of recommended parts needed for your control horns to function.

 

[Doc J]

As you know I prefer the expensive models do not include installed horns. In fact now that I think of it, I think your models are the ONLYY ones that come with any control horns. That goes for any sort of glider.. thermal, slope, foam, wood or composite. Only ARF airframes comes with horns (and servos) installed.

Hmm...good info.

Cheers,

Doc.

Let me give you my perspective, being new to gliders. I am a long-time builder vs an assembler BTW. I am confident an experienced Glider Pilot may have a preferred system they want to use so in that case leaving this open would be their choice. I have a considerable amount of time trying to figure out throws and arm length for the unusual configuration of wing geometry on a glider. I am currently working on my first Carbon glider and am apprehensive about gluing immovable items into my very thin wing. (See my post in the Cubic 3.4 thread) The LDS system looks to be well-engineered but I am afraid my wing may be tooo thin for it to function properly.

The bottom line, include a comprehensive kit with all the components for a workable system. Or A least a list of recommended parts needed for your control horns to function.

Thanks Jerry - thats the plan.

Doc.

 

[Doc J]

Guys, I talked to partners in Europe.

They say they use the carbon IDS system WITH the installed control horns.

Since my experience is a bit limited, has anyone here tried this?

Any advice gratefully received.

Cheers,

Doc.

 

[Konrad]

Guys, I talked to partners in Europe.

They say they use the carbon IDS system WITH the installed control horns.

Since my experience is a bit limited, has anyone here tried this?

Any advice gratefully received.

Cheers,

Doc.

???
Definition that that can't be an IDS (Internal Drive System).

I assume you are taking about these trays and external bearing support.
Leaving the factory control horn installed does eliminate the chance of damaging the wing or surface trying to remove the horn. But at the cost of a lot of the reason we use IDS (LDS or RDS).
Leaving off the horn and we can install the IDS spoon and gain all the advantages with little of the risk.

 

[Doc J]

???
Definition that that can't be an IDS (Internal Drive System).

I assume you are taking about these trays and external bearing support.
Leaving the factory control horn installed does eliminate the chance of damaging the wing or surface trying to remove the horn. But at the cost of a lot of the reason we use IDS (LDS or RDS).
Leaving off the horn and we can install the IDS spoon and gain all the advantages with little of the risk.

No idea - they do what they do, and apprently it works, so they at least want to stay with the installed horns.

 

[Konrad]

They want to stay with the external horn or are they making the best of the situation?

It does have the advantage of leverage.

 

[Doc J]

They want to stay with the external horn or are they making the best of the situation?

It does have the advantage of leverage.

They say they prefer the control horn version with the IDS back end.

They have obviously tried both.

Doc.

 

[Hill Hobbit]

I prefer control surface horns driven by IDS servo horns in Servorahmen mounting frames. There are specific adaptors for the servo end that take 2mm threaded rod, allowing the use of conventional clevises at the control surface end. Good mechanical advantage and lots of servo rotation is required. Easy maintenance.

 

[Doc J]

After stirring up whats left of my brains a little; I suppose there is no reason why an IDS servo mounting set up should not work with 'conventional' control horns as well as 'spoons' actually.

While I think the IDS servo mounting and power use with its mechancal advantage a very good odea, I'll be honest in saying that I don't personally find the design or the installation techniques needed for the 'spoon' method particularly elegant.

Just my thoughts.

Doc.

 

[Hill Hobbit]

That’s why, after using the full IDS setup on just one model, I reverted back to conventional surface horns in conjunction with the bearing servo mounts and IDS servo drives using the rod adaptors. Best of both worlds.

 

[Doc J]

That’s why, after using the full IDS setup on just one model, I reverted back to conventional surface horns in conjunction with the bearing servo mounts and IDS servo drives using the rod adaptors. Best of both worlds.

You could be right there, Jonty.

What say you others: So far its even with Europe = 2 yay, USA = 2 nay

Interesting.

Doc.

 

[iti20090]

Aways been a bit bemused that such an important part of the mouldie assembly is left to the oft fumble fingered buyer like myself - I would plumb for prefitted and aligned horns in a heart beat, yes please.

however....

I recently traded for a complete Ceres Lift, which I think has RDS at tip and IDS at flap (guessing). I was intuitively expecting lotsa slop and reduced flap travel and somewhat stunned to find neither. The other upside is no control horns proud of the surface, man it is just so damn neat, I am blown away.

Cheers
Dave

 

[Doc J]

Aways been a bit bemused that such an important part of the mouldie assembly is left to the oft fumble fingered buyer like myself - I would plumb for prefitted and aligned horns in a heart beat, yes please.

however....

I recently traded for a complete Ceres Lift, which I think has RDS at tip and IDS at flap (guessing). I was intuitively expecting lotsa slop and reduced flap travel and somewhat stunned to find neither. The other upside is no control horns proud of the surface, man it is just so damn neat, I am blown away.

Cheers
Dave

Thanks for the input, Dave.

Doc.

 

[Konrad]

They want to stay with the external horn or are they making the best of the situation?

It does have the advantage of leverage.

Correction:
There is no advantage in leverage, assuming that the control throw and servo movement (resolution) are the same. The larger control horn may have a benefit in that wear and clearances are a smaller proportion to total movement.

If going with the hybrid external bearing support and Servorahmen servo arm? Please provide the customer with pre drilled and tapped servo end push rods. I did these and needed to use a lathe to center the threaded hole for the 2 x.04 mm wire. I've had these ends split. As a result I now use a sleeve over the end to keep the thin plastic from splitting.

There were a host of other issues. I think I've gone over them here on the Aloft forum. I'll need to search to find the write up.

P.S.
The real IDS has a lot more pin contact area than the classic clevis pin. Generally this can be thought of as stronger and longer wear set up.

 

[Johnnashville]

Some are artists with dremel tools (me, not so much)

My vote , not installed.
The builder then has a choice, IDS, top drive, bottom drive, DS style, Tomas Liu drive, brass control horns, whatever the model and flight envelope calls for.

 

[Konrad]

Aways been a bit bemused that such an important part of the mouldie assembly is left to the oft fumble fingered buyer like myself - I would plumb for prefitted and aligned horns in a heart beat, yes please.

however....

I recently traded for a complete Ceres Lift, which I think has RDS at tip and IDS at flap (guessing). I was intuitively expecting lotsa slop and reduced flap travel and somewhat stunned to find neither. The other upside is no control horns proud of the surface, man it is just so damn neat, I am blown away.

Cheers
Dave

Most OEM clevis control horns are IMPROPERLY installed! This often is because it is difficult to develop tooling that ensures proper placement of the horn relative to the hinge line.

A full IDS really is a step in the right direction as you have found.

 

[Konrad]

Some are artists with dremel tools (me, not so much)

My vote , not installed.
The builder then has a choice, IDS, top drive, bottom drive, DS style, Tomas Liu drive, brass control horns, whatever the model and flight envelope calls for.

Please vote and vote often to help give Doc some data to make an informed decision about future configurations.

 

[Wayne]

What I would love to see if a fully installed IDS spoon in a fully moulded wing.

This is exactly what we did with the new Quantum F3X gliders.

Quantum 2 DP Electric Glider - W/ IDS installed

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alofthobbies.com

Quantum 2 DP F3F/F3B with IDS installed

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Actually we did more. The entire plane is setup for the servos, just drop them into the trays. Yes, this costs more to have done.