Redshift #3 (Green glass prototype)

[Konrad]

Nobody has anything inherent against KingMax or any other product. What I asked of Doc in this thread was to name brands ,model number and manufacture time line. It is hoped that KingMax has improved their product line. I will say that the last time I looked (had a set in my hands) they were a no go product! This was about 2 or 3 years ago and servos ranging in size from 9 grams to 32 grams.

So based on MY experiance the KingMax is a do not purchase brand. You may recall that I at one time liked the Blue Bird BMS 101dmg. But after some use I found them to be sub par, said so and gave my findings in this thread. I also liked the PDI 9 gram servo. Again after some use I can’t recommend them as a result of gear train issues.

Now if Doc has a good experiance with the brand, I might give them a try. But until I have confidance based on MY actual experiance I can‘t recommend the KingMax brand of servo.


This is why it is so easy for a brand to destroy their reputation and it takes a long time to build it back. A failed product or service blunder will haunt (should haunt) a firm for a long time. For example the name Boeing should forever be spoken with the corporate greed of the 737 max firmly in the back of one’s mind. FrSky is digging her way back out of one such hole she dug for herself with the customer experience. Aeroic* too is rebuilding her reputation after the Zhou fiasco. Again this will take some time.

* All the Aeroic models I’ve purchased have meet my expectation for a model at the sale price point. And with some minor repairs or re-engineering they are exceptional models. Would I recommend an Aeroic Model from the past manufacture? NO! Would I buy another Aeroic from the current manufacture? YES! Would I recommend an Aeroic model to a good friend? Not without a talk as I haven’t used a model from the new manufacture. I hope this is where KingMax is. That is they have corrected the issues with the early servos.

 

[Doc James Hammond]

Nobody has anything inherent against KingMax or any other product. What I asked of Doc in this thread was to name brands ,model number and manufacture time line. It is hoped that KingMax has improved their product line. I will say that the last time I looked (had a set in my hands) they were a no go product! This was about 2 or 3 years ago and servos ranging in size from 9 grams to 32 grams.

So based on MY experiance the KingMax is a do not purchase brand.

Now if Doc has a good experiance with the brand, I might give them a try. But until I have confidance based on MY actual experiance I can‘t recommend the KingMax brand of servo.

This is why it is so easy for a brand to destroy their reputation and it takes a long time to build it back. FrSky is digging her way back out of the hole she dug for herself with the customer experience.

Could be we are dealing with two different animals - I certainly hope so.

I had heard a plethora of adverse comments on KingMax, Konrad and I did discuss some of this with the guy I'm in contact with when he offered the new ones for test. He somewhat reluctantly admitted that there had been failures in many parts of the design and manufacturing; pretty much from top to bottom. However, he also assured me that the new generation had cured a lot of the troubles. Let's face it they really had to do something or they would have become a pariah. As you say it doesn't take long for that to happen and it's a long and hard road back to credibility.

I'd never tried the older versions, but I'm completely sure that with your vast experience you guys were making accurate assessments. However, so far, testing the new 10mm and the newest 6mm ones I'm really quite impressed.

If you do get the chance it might be worth trying a couple of the new 6mm ones in the V-Tails.

Cheers,

Doc.

 

[Konrad]

Will you supply the airframe?

 

[Doc James Hammond]

Will you supply the airframe?

Wot me? I don't even have one yet...

Doc.

 

[Hill Hobbit]

Hey James, apparently you have to provide ‘data’ to back up your statements re these servos. The fact that some of the best F3f pilots in the UK etc, plus many of my soaring buddies and myself have been using them with complete success for ages now, apparently means nothing to some people. Or, is it simply because Aloft doesn’t sell them?
Regarding your new Aeroic models, of which I and Wayne have a Forza each (love it!) now it wouldn’t be recommended to prospective purchasers who make enquiries on here just because one person hasn’t actually either seen or got one himself??
What a load of bolleaux!
Cheers
Jonty

 

[Konrad]

What data has Doc provided? I see no performance data just that he has done a durability test and that on the bench Doc. is happy with the performance.

I fail to see why my lack of endorsement would hinder yours.

Like I’ve said before data will set you free. I’d be looking for specs if I’m to recommend anything I hadn’t personally been exposed to (used).

From here my personal experience and that of many many top level F3F pilots is to avoid KingMax. Doc confirms this in that the proprietor of KingMax has admitted KingMax has had issues with their offerings.

So what is bollocks? I was talking about my recommendations and reputation. I can’t in good faith recommend KingMax servos.

 

[Hill Hobbit]

You’ve made your opinion abundantly clear about these servos. You’ve also just contradicted yourself re Aeroic models.
Bruce Tebo was happy DS’ing his model from Frank in Taiwan, Wayne has said his Forza is great, and my Forza is too, again made very nicely by Frank the Dynamic guy in Taiwan not Zhou. So, based on the fact that Wayne, who after all is the owner of Aloft Hobbies, is very happy with his Forza and he is more than happy to import and retail them, why do any of the new Aeroic models need your blessing? Is the tail trying to wag the dog here? Sure looks like it to me…

 

[Doc James Hammond]

Hi Guys,
let's not get our knickers in a twist. Both of you are speaking from certain knowledge - Konrad from previous experiences - backed up by the testers at Aloft I have to add, and Jonty, possibly from more recent experience and the experiences of his flying colleagues in the UK. Are these test servos different animals?
Could be. As you both know, I have as much contact with the UK guys as I do with the guys in the US so I subscribe to both schools of thought.

What I have done is the following tests - and it's all by hand and by eye as I have no scientific comparator to test voltage/current/torque/speed:

"Test" procedure:

1. Take a cursory look inside the servos to check what the machining looked like. No discernable anomalies and seems to ba a good fit: = Pass
2. Test the lifting power 'by eye' - which is the best I can do for torque
3. Check for backlash when non-power. Almost no discernable play = pass
4. Check the centring when first fired up with a 12" (304.8mm) pointer attached. Within 2mm = Pass
5. Check the centring when first fired up with a 25"(635.0 mm) pointer attached. Within 3mm = pass
6. Run each servo backwards and forwards at max travel continuously for 12 hours each with no failures and smooth movement with no stuttering. = Pass
7. Repeat tests 2, 3, 4, and 5 after 12 hours of continuous running with (as far as I can see) the same results. = Pass

The KingMax Servos tested:

C507 6mm type servos: x 2
C410 6mm type servos: x 2
CLS0612W 10mm type servos x 2
CLS0512W 10mm type servos x 2
CLS0911W 10mm type servos x 2

I can only verify what I said before that the servos I tested were apparently off the production lines at random and in fact were very impressive, easily as good as KST and really close to MKS. If I was asked for a difference between MKS and Kingmax test servos, I might suspect that the centring might not be quite as good as MKS after several hours of use, but frankly, the difference is minimal.

I only ran them for 12 hours continuously but when you think of a lifetime of a servo that's probably quite a lot. Would they have failed if constantly powered up/powered down? I can't say.

Not sure you could call that "data" as such.

Cheers,

Doc.

 

[Doc James Hammond]

You’ve made your opinion abundantly clear about these servos. You’ve also just contradicted yourself re Aeroic models.
Bruce Tebo was happy DS’ing his model from Frank in Taiwan, Wayne has said his Forza is great, and my Forza is too, again made very nicely by Frank the Dynamic guy in Taiwan not Zhou. So, based on the fact that Wayne, who after all is the owner of Aloft Hobbies, is very happy with his Forza and he is more than happy to import and retail them, why do any of the new Aeroic models need your blessing? Is the tail trying to wag the dog here? Sure looks like it to me…

Frank is not in Taiwan, Jonty, he's in China, but anyway.

TBH I don't think this has got too much to do with my models except possibly one: The Redshift - which is out of production now due to Zhou stealing the moulds. But that is another story and this is probably not the place.

Konrad was/is an early tester of the Redshift and being the nitpicking bugger he is, he is a very valuable friend to Aeroic for his microscopic analysis of everything from the atomic structure through theoretical aerodynamics to the light wind flying characteristics. Think of the plane as "the universe", and Konrad's analysis as "the entire contents". Konrad's input as a detailed analyser is very important to me because of his detail-orientated nature and the fact that I am now making a mark II "Spada" version. He has, and is making a lot of really good sound suggestions that I will be incorporating in the new model - so maybe that explains that.

But anyway, here we are talking about KingMax servos so that's what we should try to concentrate on.

Doc.

 

[Hill Hobbit]

Hi James, sorry about that, I don’t want to put out misinformation.
Thanks for putting me right.
Cheers

 

[Hill Hobbit]

Aw shucks!
WTH, you‘re happy so far with your servos, I’m happy with mine as are some highly respected pilots like Kevin Newton for instance, so as we’ve got around 40mph winds to fly in tomorrow, the Forza’s going to be ballasted up big time for some biiig aerobatics, and it will be fun. That’s if it doesn’t rain…

Cheers
Jonty

 

[Konrad]

Where have I contradicted my position regarding Aeroic models? I clearly state that the products from the previous OEM Zhoe are suspect. I have personally dealt with these short comings with my Redshifts and Gremlin. With the parts support and mechanical properties of the units manufactured by Zhoe, Aeroic has a bit of a tarnished reputation here within the clubs I fly. I can't comment/ recommend any of the new products from the new OEM as "I" have no experience with these. While I have seen the end products from the new manufacture. I know nothing of the contract or QC programs implemented between Frank and Aeroic. So I can't recommend the new Aeroic models. As I have no experience with the product. I have every expectation that the new Frank and Aeroic partnership and products will be far superior to the products we got from Zhoe/Aeroic alliance.

What does any of this have to do with my blessings? We were talking about would "I" recommend brand "X" or brand "Y". I think we went over this earlier. I try to focus my recommendations on objective data. I even try to supply this data (it might not be un-biased). But I try to show the short comings of products I've dealt with and offer work arounds, if I've found them. Short of that I will give my opinion as to products I've had experience with. In the case of King Max they are a do not use product, from my experience.

Now I'm not a salesman, I place little or no value on opinions (mine included) or testimonials. Coming from an engineering background I want to have objective data to make my system selection. Having personal experience with manufacture sponsorship I actually discount anything a sponsored pilot is using. Now I know we have no requierment to report failures. As such we really don't have any data to make objective assessment on our hobby products.

Now I will say that a N of 2 does not constitute a statistically significant sample size for me to put my prejudices about King Max servos aside.

 

[Konrad]

Here I show what I've done to increase the servo resolution. I've effective lengthened the control surface moment arm. You can see how the spoon sits proud 1.0mm above the wing skin. I also took the opportunity to place the spoon aft to allow for more upward aileron movements

I think I have found the drag that might be causing the ailerons to double center. There was some overflowing epoxy that was binding the push rod. I cleared this overflowing epoxy. And added some lubrication to both ends of the aileron push rod. Now the ailerons are centering just fine on the bench.

I only have to deal the elevator double centering. I'll try to see if dropping down 1mm in the push rod diameter will free the V-tail push rods.

 

[Doc James Hammond]

Aw shucks!
WTH, you‘re happy so far with your servos, I’m happy with mine as are some highly respected pilots like Kevin Newton for instance, so as we’ve got around 40mph winds to fly in tomorrow, the Forza’s going to be ballasted up big time for some biiig aerobatics, and it will be fun. That’s if it doesn’t rain…

Cheers
Jonty

Have fun Mate and hope the wet keeps off too..Where are you flying?

Doc.

 

[Hill Hobbit]

Malvern. BTW, 3 of us with six servo mouldies, and guess what all 18 servos are? 24 if I take my Tempest as well…
As for post#32, I’m lost for words, really.
Cheers
Jonty

 

[Doc James Hammond]

Love flying at Malvern but being a lazy bugger, I didn't like the climb.

I used to have to visit quite often to go to the DOD facility many years ago. Bung a model in the car and get there - bit of a stride from Cambridge though! Ivinghoe was nearer.

Have fun!

Doc.

 

[Konrad]

Malvern. BTW, 3 of us with six servo mouldies, and guess what all 18 servos are? 24 if I take my Tempest as well…
As for post#32, I’m lost for words, really.
Cheers
Jonty

???
I’m ecstatic that you are having great success with the new KingMax servos. And yes I think a dozen or more units is a statistically valid sample size.

But the question is can I recommend KingMax? And the answer is an resounding No! Having personally measured and seen the brand used.

It will take a lot of data points like yours (even subjective) and some on hands experience for me to recommend the brand. Such is the cost of letting sub standard parts get into the market place. This is why a robust QC/QA program is so important.

By the way I find that the KST X10 and KST X10mini are every bit as good as the MKS 6130 in the same class. I find the MKS HV6110 just a step below, but in the same class as, the KST X08 series.

Now what I find a bit annoying is that I’ve found that the pitch diameter of the output splines is the same within 0.05mm. This means that most plastic servo arms are interchangeable. But the metal RDS/IDS arms are not. I don’t know if this is a tolerance issue (0.05mm is a bit much for a manufacturing tolerance ) or a design spec.

Yes, I agree MKS is the standard by which slope servos are measured.

Data will set you free,
Konrad

 

[Konrad]

Its back to Carbon pushrods on the MkII Konrad.

Doc.

Now I understand this reference. The stock Redshift mk1 used snakes (Bowden tubes). I had forgotten that, as I tore them out early in my builds.

 

[Konrad]

Back to the Redshift in glass. I finally was able to perform a full maiden. You might recall that at the last F3F race I tried to maiden this model only to have it fall all the way down to the valley floor.

Today at Thornton Beach the wind was light but steady. I was able to fly the bowl to my heart's content. This is the second Redshift I've maiden. Again no surprises. Now I need to mention this is a glass lay up and is about 300 grams lighter than the maiden I had with the carbon Redshift. In the light lift the glass ship really is the better ship in that the rolls where superior. To this end I had cut down the aileron wipers to about half their as shipped size with a vibrating saw, like a Fein Sander. I'm finding that all three of my Redshifts are having the ailerons bind in the upwards direction out at the tips way before the root side binds. With the aileron tips now being able to aid in the roll the Redshift really can get up on the wing tip fast. I love it! This and the lighter weight of the wings makes the glass Redshift the aircraft I want to race in light lift.

Now the question on everybody's mind is how did the controls center. This was a major reason this model was on the shelf for 4 or 5 years. Well the model does not double center in any of the axises! I really like how nice she flies in the straights. No hunting and she is again dead quiet. The only time I could get any noise from her was in full aileron deflection. Doc. that wing really is nice to see/hear working. (I also maiden my Alpha 2.8 and you could hear the air trying to get out of the way of that ship)!

Now for the bad news. This Redshift has the stock force layout. That is the V-tail is still at 104°. With the stock V-tail it was hard to get nice pylon turns. I found that the aileron differential and rudder mix values were always changing as a function of speed. This made consistent turns all but impossible.

So while I love the wing as found on the Redshift, I actually hate how the stock Redshift carves the turns. When you get it dialed in for any one speed she is fine. But as we all know F3F racing isn't about flying at one speed rather the plane flies at a host of different speed through out the whole heat. This makes the stock Redshift a poor F3F racer. I'm looking forward to trying some new tails as the wing really is intriguing.

 

[Wayne]

I like that you named the bench Ronaldo. I think that would be a good name for the plane.

I'd love to give her another flight should we ever be at a slope together and you happen to have her in the air. Just a couple of turns..

Are you allowed to race with a gyro?