Possible race planes for fun MOM series racing

[Wayne]

No flying wings for racing.. Gives up all of the performance tuning I'd like to see the pilot working learning. (camber, etc)

A printed fuselage does not work well, wood would be far better in this area.

I have a new filament on the way that I will have Rafael give a try. Someone else mentioned it might do well. It is a cheap but hard (72) TPU. Said to be able to take a beating, but stiff enough for our uses. Worth a try. I don't have high hopes.. On the plus side it is cheap and said to print well.

At Aloft we have a number of hybrid builds using mostly wood and some 3D printed assemblies where they make the most sense. This works really well IMHO. But getting people to build is another challenge.

Summit - Non-glue assembly? Can you send me a link to something? I try to avoid using hardware to hold any printed planes together where possible. It is a huge stress riser in my experience and very short lived, or massively heavy. On non-aircraft stuff, sure. Maybe I am not understanding what you are suggesting.

On my last wing build for the Slingshot I did not glue the spar to the wing panels. I only glued the panels to one another. This would allow me to replace a section or two of the wing by cutting out the bad parts and sliding the new into place. All other cracks and such I have managed to fix with thin CA. Fragile but fixable most of the time.

 

[Red]

I will race whatever we decide, well because I want to just race.

For me though, its a time issue. I'd rather put the time into something that will likely survive Vs. taking damage from landing. Printed planes are just too fragile, at least in their current iteration IMHO. Yes they are inexpensive and quick to build, but I don't want top put one or more together every month. There has to be a middle ground that is wood or glass, affordable yet easy enough for the new builder. At the end of the day though, it IS racing, and it DOES take some effort.

 

[Wayne]

There is a small chance I can get some airframes from Poland that would do well for us, but shipping has not worked from there for a few years.

 

[Doc James Hammond]

This is the thread to discuss possible ideas for future MOM style racing.

I've been chatting with a few people on this subject, and I think a few things have helped to pull off this first season:

1. The Slingshot was available in great numbers on a short notice.
2. The Slingshot was rather cheap.
3. The Slingshot is easy to build. Most people should be able to build one in 2 nights.
4. The Slingshot offers a good level of performance, Some might say excellent performance considering points 2 and 3 above.

Yes, printed planes have drawbacks, but they have benefits too. If the group decides to switch to a different airframe I hope it will be something that is still easy to build and has a low entry cost with a high level of performance and still easy to build. I think these points are very important to bringing pilots to the slope.

I do not think a composite airframe will fit the bill. Too much money and then some pilots are not willing to put them at risk. One of the guys that killed his Slingshot at the last race was having a good laugh about it. He told me he was glad it was just a printed plane, no guilt.

I have thought about foam core wings, EPP wings, etc. and I come back to performance and build complexity as a concern.

I have thought about a hybrid model with a wooden fuselage and printed wing. The wooden fuselage would be much more durable than the printed fuselage. Seems most of the damage has been fuselage carnage on landing (mid airs are killing wings). This might be a good combo. I have some ideas that I'd like to try for a printed wing that would be more durable and still very easy to build. So maybe..

I think it's already a PRINTED contest for PRINTED models - Only. No hybrids, no balsa, no foam...Also: No model restrictions bar safety, of course.

Why no flying wings? Am I wrong? Is this a tuning contest for novices using printed conventional planes? I thought it was for good old racing?

As mentioned, for a 60 class (NOT PRINTED CLASS), then of course, allow foam/wood/glass, etc, etc, AND Printies, but if the two classes are combined, then the moulded or hybrid 60" models will soon dominate.

Keep the PRINTED for PRINTED and the 60" (If any) for 60" says I.

Doc.

 

[zeo0nie1]

The Slingshot is fantastic but I'd like a larger plane to handle less than ideal conditions better.

There are a lot of 60" class designs out there either open or available for purchase. I'm scratching my head about the 60" not being feasible chatter.

Not being able to reprint at home kinda kills the point of 3DP. I'm not all that excited about ordering another one. This is not a dig at the generous price and skill/effort put into Aloft's manufacturing of them.

Why is nobody talking about the obvious solution: built-up balsa models that can be repaired. Half joking.

 

[Doc James Hammond]

The Slingshot is fantastic but I'd like a larger plane to handle less than ideal conditions better.

There are a lot of 60" class designs out there either open or available for purchase. I'm scratching my head about the 60" not being feasible chatter.

Not being able to reprint at home kinda kills the point of 3DP. I'm not all that excited about ordering another one. This is not a dig at the generous price and skill/effort put into Aloft's manufacturing of them.


Why is nobody talking about the obvious solution: built-up balsa models that can be repaired. Half joking.

Quote: "There are a lot of 60" class designs out there, either open or available for purchase. I'm scratching my head about the 60" not being feasible chatter."
Quote: "Why is nobody talking about the obvious solution: built-up balsa models that can be repaired. Half joking."

I think this is the whole thing. Let there be no confusion!!!

What has been invented is now a PRINTED-ONLY class. Balsa, foam, glass NOT WELCOME. Period.

Frankly, if moulded or well made built up balsa, etc. models were allowed, then it's really likely that the Printies would be easily outclassed.

Larger 60" Printies are Ok I suppose, but maybe even more fragile, i.e. not so suitable. The Printie, at this stage at least, is more or less self-limiting on wingspan. So let's be honest: Slingshot-sized Printie has little or no chance against a well-flown 60" moulded or well-made balsa/foam/glass model in either very light winds or a good blow.

But let there not be any mistake here. The printies are the cheapest and fastest way to get into the air for MoM racing. The only real problem with that is that right now, there is effectively no other choice than the model design kindly contributed by Ollie and made by Aloft. So, like it or not its also an ODR event.

I mean, Wayne at least does not even want to let different printed designs in - especially not those wicked flying wings.

So, to reiterate: Printies Vs 60" - They are TWO DIFFERENT CLASSES and should be flown as such with no confusion at all.

Cheers,

Doc.

 

[zeo0nie1]

To clarify, there are a lot of 60" 3D print designs out there.

 

[Doc James Hammond]

To clarify, there are a lot of 60" 3D print designs out there.

Yes, agreed, and of course these could be included in the PRINTED class AND the 60" class - but Zeo - who will produce them? Where can they be bought?

This is why I suggested maybe a small team - maybe make an established design, or maybe make their own.

Just no flying wings, those wicked devil-worshipping models..!

Doc

 

[Doc James Hammond]

aaarrgghh...
Noooo... https://www.planeprint.com/speedwing
https://www.eclipson-airplanes.com/wings More devil's work.

Now I know most of these have a semblance at least of a fuselage, but I'm guessing that it won't be too much trouble to thin them down.

Some look pretty good to me.

Doc.

 

[Wayne]

Ok - I feel like I'm being pointed at for a lot of the decision making and a lot of assumptions have been assumed incorrectly.

This is not my race series. This is not Ollie's either. This is "our" race series. Our = the pilots that are flying in it. They will be picking what they want to do going forward, and where they would like to fly, etc. For this year I made some executive decisions to get the ball rolling. I think they have worked out well.

I'd like to ask people that are not part of the "our" race to please butt out and stop stirring the pot. You are killing the fun. I'll extend to out to Konrad that is filling my emails and text messages with all sorts of "stuff" on this subject. PLEASE STOP, you two are starting to stress me out. Trust me I have enough stress in my life this year, let me enjoy what we have here before it is ripped away. I have not said anything to the other racers, but this is probably the only season I will be able to fly with you, and probably the end of easy access to slope racing for me. It sucks, but that is my reality.

I think it is good for the group to be discussing what they want to do moving forward. Thus my own feedback in the thread, and yes, we discuss this some at the races. But with only a couple of races under our belts, we should stick with the current models and fly the heck out of 'em! The last race was a great time. I enjoyed the hell out of 'em. Hope you all did too. Ultimately, that should be our goal. FUN

 

[OribaSJ88]

All this discussion should be prefaced by a truism and its corollary. 1) You can't fly or race what you don't have. 2) You can only fly and race what is readily available. I would add to the second, for the purpose of this event, that ideally it should be relatively inexpensive and "somewhat robust". Through Aloft's efforts, they made available an airframe for the race at what, by any measure, is a very reasonable price. For those involved with the initial discussions, robustness was a concern. We moved ahead anyway because there just wasn't another option. For my druthers, I would have much preferred to see a simple slope racer with fiberglass fuselage and sheeted foam wings. But, lest we not forget truism one, none was available. Any improvements to the Slingshot as provided currently by Aloft also would have likely meant no racing this year. A lot of fun and discovery has come out of what we've been able to accomplish thus far. I'd hate to have missed any of it--even if it was accompanied by a bump or two.

So, what can be done with what we have.

• The best thing to do for the survival of the current model is to glass the fuselage around the wing saddle. I would suggest doing it from the inside on new models. Glass the entire circumference of the fuselage. 3 ounce fiberglass should do the trick but more locally around the joint with the wing isn't a bad idea. All the wing loads from a less than perfect landing go through this area and the PETG is fundamentally brittle. It's good enough for normal landings and even less than perfect landings. A hard landing or a crash will crack it.
• The second area where I personally have seen a lot of failures is just below the vertical fin and the horizontal stabilizer. It's worth putting a little glass in this area, perhaps 2 oz, which has to carry the mass of the empennage in the case of bad landings or crashes.
• Attaching with glue the wing center section to the fuselage and making the wings removable isn't a bad idea. The wings aren't designed for it and really should have a secondary joiner to support the connection with the inner and outer panels. A small strip of fiberglass tape joining the sections could accomplish this. Beyond making the wing panels more easily replaceable, it would strengthen the fuselage and likely reduce somewhat the loads that get transmitted to the fuselage if the panels can move a bit in a hard landing.
• Make sure that the servo tray has carbon fiber on both side as well as the top (side opposite the opening) and that they run nearly the full length of the tray. This is essential to strengthen the PETG in the tray.
• Without a change to the design, there isn't too much more than can be done.

I would hope that we don't move wholesale to a new event concept too quickly. We will hold three events, perhaps more, this year. There are plenty of people who have made the investment but have yet to join the races. With that out of the way, what's possible gong forward will depend to a large extent on what's available and what kind of event people want to have. Those are decisions we still have time to make.

Ollie

 

[Doc James Hammond]

No flying wings for racing.. Gives up all of the performance tuning I'd like to see the pilot working learning. (camber, etc)

A printed fuselage does not work well, wood would be far better in this area.

I have a new filament on the way that I will have Rafael give a try. Someone else mentioned it might do well. It is a cheap but hard (72) TPU. Said to be able to take a beating, but stiff enough for our uses. Worth a try. I don't have high hopes.. On the plus side it is cheap and said to print well.

At Aloft we have a number of hybrid builds using mostly wood and some 3D printed assemblies where they make the most sense. This works really well IMHO. But getting people to build is another challenge.

Summit - Non-glue assembly? Can you send me a link to something? I try to avoid using hardware to hold any printed planes together where possible. It is a huge stress riser in my experience and very short lived, or massively heavy. On non-aircraft stuff, sure. Maybe I am not understanding what you are suggesting.

On my last wing build for the Slingshot I did not glue the spar to the wing panels. I only glued the panels to one another. This would allow me to replace a section or two of the wing by cutting out the bad parts and sliding the new into place. All other cracks and such I have managed to fix with thin CA. Fragile but fixable most of the time.

"No flying wings for racing" So that's YOUR decision, Wayne - and everyone has to abide by it. Correct.

Anyone who has even flown any kind of slope plane knows that any model of any configuration needs performance tuning. To day not is just silly.

A flying wing does not give up any performance, and potentially gains some. It just needs someone who can make a fast flying wing, and there are an awful lot of them about.

And as to what you'd like to see the pilots do - how about what they'd like to do?

Are you really running these races, and what can be flown??

Why do I get the feeling this post will disappear?

Doc

 

[Doc James Hammond]

Ok - I feel like I'm being pointed at for a lot of the decision making and a lot of assumptions have been assumed incorrectly.

Wayne - you are making decisions, so people are pointing to you.
Instead of dictating rules, why not ask? How about this? Or maybe that?

This is not my race series. This is not Ollie's either. This is "our" race series. Our = the pilots that are flying in it. They will be picking what they want to do going forward, and where they would like to fly, etc. For this year I made some executive decisions to get the ball rolling. I think they have worked out well.

I'd like to ask people that are not part of the "our" race to please butt out and stop stirring the pot. You are killing the fun. I'll extend to out to Konrad that is filling my emails and text messages with all sorts of "stuff" on this subject. PLEASE STOP, you two are starting to stress me out. Trust me I have enough stress in my life this year, let me enjoy what we have here before it is ripped away. I have not said anything to the other racers, but this is probably the only season I will be able to fly with you, and probably the end of easy access to slope racing for me. It sucks, but that is my reality.

I think it is good for the group to be discussing what they want to do moving forward. Thus my own feedback in the thread, and yes, we discuss this some at the races. But with only a couple of races under our belts, we should stick with the current models and fly the heck out of 'em! The last race was a great time. I enjoyed the hell out of 'em. Hope you all did too. Ultimately, that should be our goal. FUN

Though not named, I guess I must be the other "offender" apart from Konrad. But seriously, Wayne, if you are going to be the chief honcho in this and therefore want to have the power to say what the contestants can and can't do, then step up.

For my part, I have only tried to clarify what the race is and suggest some other alternatives with nothing but good intentions.

If I have said anything untrue, then please let me know, and I will gladly apologise.

Doc.

 

[Doc James Hammond]

All this discussion should be prefaced by a truism and its corollary. 1) You can't fly or race what you don't have. 2) You can only fly and race what is readily available. I would add to the second, for the purpose of this event, that ideally it should be relatively inexpensive and "somewhat robust". Through Aloft's efforts, they made available an airframe for the race at what, by any measure, is a very reasonable price. For those involved with the initial discussions, robustness was a concern. We moved ahead anyway because there just wasn't another option. For my druthers, I would have much preferred to see a simple slope racer with fiberglass fuselage and sheeted foam wings. But, lest we not forget truism one, none was available. Any improvements to the Slingshot as provided currently by Aloft also would have likely meant no racing this year. A lot of fun and discovery has come out of what we've been able to accomplish thus far. I'd hate to have missed any of it--even if it was accompanied by a bump or two.

So, what can be done with what we have.

• The best thing to do for the survival of the current model is to glass the fuselage around the wing saddle. I would suggest doing it from the inside on new models. Glass the entire circumference of the fuselage. 3 ounce fiberglass should do the trick but more locally around the joint with the wing isn't a bad idea. All the wing loads from a less than perfect landing go through this area and the PETG is fundamentally brittle. It's good enough for normal landings and even less than perfect landings. A hard landing or a crash will crack it.
• The second area where I personally have seen a lot of failures is just below the vertical fin and the horizontal stabilizer. It's worth putting a little glass in this area, perhaps 2 oz, which has to carry the mass of the empennage in the case of bad landings or crashes.
• Attaching with glue the wing center section to the fuselage and making the wings removable isn't a bad idea. The wings aren't designed for it and really should have a secondary joiner to support the connection with the inner and outer panels. A small strip of fiberglass tape joining the sections could accomplish this. Beyond making the wing panels more easily replaceable, it would strengthen the fuselage and likely reduce somewhat the loads that get transmitted to the fuselage if the panels can move a bit in a hard landing.
• Make sure that the servo tray has carbon fiber on both side as well as the top (side opposite the opening) and that they run nearly the full length of the tray. This is essential to strengthen the PETG in the tray.
• Without a change to the design, there isn't too much more than can be done.

I would hope that we don't move wholesale to a new event concept too quickly. We will hold three events, perhaps more, this year. There are plenty of people who have made the investment but have yet to join the races. With that out of the way, what's possible gong forward will depend to a large extent on what's available and what kind of event people want to have. Those are decisions we still have time to make.

Ollie

Totally agree.

I'd (If I could) use the available printed models, look carefully at Ollie - the designer's - suggestions, incorporate them, maybe even a few more, and have fun. But on the other side, I'd also not forget that there are others out there from different suppliers that are suitable and that there could be new designs coming up.

Oh, and please don't ban flying wings. There really is no good reason to do so.

More people + more model designs = more fun.

Doc.

 

[jure]

I would like to add an option .

It would be nice to have an open category , up to 60" wingspan.
No restrictions on planform , construction materials, or weight , only restricting maximum wingspan.
The MoM racing competitors select each other based on their planes , interests , and abilities.

this way we could give people like me , who may have some flyable , but perhaps not "very competitive" , but "sacrificable" models,
a chance to learn to race and fly what models we have , without needing to make any investment beforehand.

My intention is to have fun , and not to have a trophy . Even losing the race , I win !

 

[Doc James Hammond]

I would like to add an option .

It would be nice to have an open category , up to 60" wingspan.
No restrictions on planform , construction materials, or weight , only restricting maximum wingspan.
The MoM racing competitors select each other based on their planes , interests , and abilities.

this way we could give people like me , who may have some flyable , but perhaps not "very competitive" , but "sacrificable" models,
a chance to learn to race and fly what models we have , without needing to make any investment beforehand.

My intention is to have fun , and not to have a trophy . Even losing the race , I win !

TOTALLY AGREE!

Doc.

 

[Chris]

I agree with Wayne on the flying wings thing for beginners. I don't remember him saying that they do not have the performance, he said "Beginners" and "performance tuning". For instance, the way that I take it, A 2 servo flying wing can only teach the beginner so much. What about flaps, snap flaps, V-tails, crow, butterfly... Maybe he SHOULD have said he would like to see beginners start with something with a little more of a learning curve. So that they will understand other parts of the racing more in future events.
Perhaps someone that starts a new race should start a thread, JUST for the group that is racing, to communicate with each other. Sort of an official race thread. I would also keep it public so that everyone can follow along, but ask that if you are not part of the race group please refrain from posting.
I am not trying to single out anyone, but I guess I am going to have to here. The races have started, the rules established, MOVE ON. HAVE FUN.
Wayne, As I see it you are the one who started this circuit, so for now, you are the "Head Honcho" for this run. Just say it, so there is no question, you do not want to be, or just can not be, the "Head Honcho" in the foreseeable future events. For whatever reason.
James, I like and respect you. But, You are just far too far away to participate in, start, or run a racing circuit here unfortunately. You do not have power to make any of the decisions if you are not going to be able to take part.
From what I understand, this circuit is almost over. That means;
Someone, Volunteer to keep the "Printie" circuit going.
Someone, Volunteer to start and run a Wing circuit.
Someone, Volunteer to start and run an open class circuit.
Someone, Volunteer to start and run a Mouldie circuit.
Someone, Just Volunteer to start SOMETHING.
If you don't, this will likely die.
This bickering is what is going to ruin this whole thing.
I guess what I am trying to say is this, suggestions are good, just don't expect them to be implemented immediately.
It is as simple as that. If you want a specific kind of racing, START A GROUP. That is all this circuit was supposed to show. Pick your favorite airframe and run with it. Not everyone will want to be a part of it, but I guarantee it will be a BLAST!
WHOEVER starts and runs the circuit gets to suggest and/or make the rules for said circuit up front. Then if changes need to be made, there can be a vote between the pilots in the circuit.
Now, that said, I am not even racing. I am just tired wasting time reading the bickering to try to find something useful.
So I am out.
Lets Focus on the fun folks.

 

[Wayne]

Hey all - I apologize as I think I overreacted. I have a lot of unwanted junk in my life right now and well, this MOM racing is important to me and I felt like it was being attacked so I went defensive. In reality I should be excited to see this much interest in where the group will be going in the future.

The group will need to pick their path on what they want to go for the next year. I do feel it important to steer the conversation some based on my past experience of putting these sorts of events together over the years. I have done this enough to learn what tends to kill any slope event, racing or funfly.

If you would like to race 60" planes, the club at the Slot does just this, and they are eager to get some fresh new pilots! I would love to see some of you give that a try. Don't worry, you will already know some of the guys there. Mark, Mike and Konrad are all in that club. Nothing scarry, just a little faster model at a different slope. They also host F3F events there, if you have not seen a 3 meter race plane cutting up a slope, you really should go to see it for yourself. It is very similar to what we have been doing, but one plane against the clock. You will see some great flying!

 

[Chris]

Konrad,
I apologize, I misunderstood what I was hearing. I have changed my post.

 

[RafaelAvila]

After printing more than 60 kits, I think I’ve earned the right to say a few words here.

The model definitely has its particularities and weaknesses, especially considering that it’s a 3D-printed model. But honestly, there is no real alternative. I was able to get the price so low that you simply can’t find anything comparable for $70 — a race-ready airplane that you can have assembled and flying within a few hours.

And yes, I mean a few hours. If someone wants to spend more time glassing it, reinforcing it, adding ballast, or doing whatever else they want, go for it! That’s part of the fun.

But why are we inventing so many rules? Guys, I think we’re missing the whole point here. The point is to have fun, make friends, go flying together, laugh at each other when someone does something stupid, and just enjoy the hobby. Come on, it’s not that hard to understand.

As others have already said, there’s no money being bet, no prize on the line, and unless I missed something, nobody is racing for a piece of land! Hahahaha.

Let’s not lose sight of what this is really about: getting together with our friends and meeting people we sometimes only get to see at events or when we go flying.

Friendship means a lot to me. Whether I win, lose, or completely destroy my airplane, honestly, I don’t really care.

Because when all is said and done, what I’m going to take away from this are the memories and the moments I shared with all of you.

kisses love you all