Humper and RadioCopier systems

[Kilrah]

Now as I think you are hinting that the Vantac MPM is wholly a FrSky product then I agree. But that mark doesn't explicitly mean that.

"FrSky Vantac" has always been pretty clear branding. https://www.frsky-rc.com/product/vantac-ar-wing/

I'm sure (don't know) that it is this FrSky MPM tech that Owen has stolen

The MPM is an open source hardware and software project, anyone can freely use the published design documents and FrSky were neither the first nor the last to implement them.

 

[Konrad]

"FrSky Vantac" has always been pretty clear branding. https://www.frsky-rc.com/product/vantac-ar-wing/

I see your point! Looks like FrSky doesn't have much of a leg to stand on.

The MPM is an open source hardware and software project, anyone can freely use the published design documents and FrSky were neither the first nor the last to implement them.

So if it (MPM) is going to be in the market place. I don't see a problem with FrSky making money off of the manufacturing of the MPM. While manufacturing a quality product.

So the Open Source is like a white paper? You mentioned that the layout and naming convension of the Vantac where FrSky. The ones made by Jumper do not follow the same component layout or call outs?

Now I see why FrSky isn't pushing the issue legally. They have no leg to stand on. The issue I have is FCC certification.

But here in the USA I think another party can petition the FCC into action.

All the best,
Konrad

 

[Kilrah]

I don't see a problem with FrSky making money off of the manufacturing of the MPM

I don't have an issue with them making money off of it either as long as they're not badmouthing it, blaming it for their own issues and trying to influence it. I've had exchanges with them where they attempted to force removing features from it. And as we know when the X-Lite S/Pro came out they tried preventing people from using the very module they were making for said radio. It makes no sense.

The issue I have is FCC certification.

Look a bit more closely at FrSky themselves then. They are selling several products that do not have their own certification but kinda piggyback on former products although either the hardware, software or both are completely different.

As I mentioned everyone is kinda borderline in this market segment so it doesn't matter who we're looking at, as a result I'm not caring much about the manufacturers' shenanigans and only about what the customer gets in the end.

 

[Konrad]

The products (TX name) isn't what is tested and certified. It is the RF module/circuits that are certified. This is why we see the same RF boards with the same FCC ID # in many different products.

I'm looking for a viable business model, as far too often I end up with orphaned equipment.

All the best,
Konrad

P.S.
It is good to learn that you aren't the Frsky employee on the OpenTX team.

 

[Kilrah]

It is the RF module/circuits that are certified.

AFAIK for that to work it has to be a really independent module that is certified on its own with the FCC sticker on it, it is never modified after certification, and the containing device is then not certified but labeled to contain the certified module. See Digi modules as examples.
That is not how it is done on the radios though, there have been numerous complete module hardware changes and completely new protocols.

 

[Konrad]

That's also my understanding.

Yikes, if that is not how it is done with the radio's I fly (Taranis+ and X9E). I will have to fall back on Spektrum to be legal in the USA? I really don't want to do that and loose the power of OpenTX!

 

[Kilrah]

AFAIK you as a customer do not need to care about anything, only the sellers do, and since there IS an FCC ID and the required paperwork they're covered unless it was deemed invalid after an investigation.

 

[Konrad]

Nope, it is the operator of the TX. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse in a court of law. If I operate a device that causes harm I'm liable.

True, I'm not likely to be fined for operating an illegally certified TX if no one is harmed. I can point to the sticker to show I was operating the device in good faith.

All the best,
Konrad

 

[Kilrah]

Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, but if everything is sold to someone as valid with the proper labeling and paperwork there would be no reasonable way for an average customer to be able to figure out something is wrong and be held liable.

None of us even know if it is or not here, we're just speculating, it would take actual lawyers in the field to even evaluate the validity...

All I was saying is that if someone wants to question the validity of the MPM's cert then there's also things to look at on the other side, it's not black and white at all, it's all very grey on all sides.

 

[Konrad]

So true. That is why in the USA we have so many consumer advocacy groups. This is followed by many class action suits.

Now I know why no one is going after anybody in any court of law. They know that during the discovery phase they are all dead meat!

I think I'll go back to my EK logic Control on 72 mHz!

All the best,
Konrad

 

[Konrad]

Digging around the web (searching HobbyKing and FCC) I find that HK didn't learn their lesson for the Spektrum debacle.

https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-365706A1.pdf

I hope the FCC and the DOJ have enough teeth to get this RF issue under control. I wouldn't want to be selling MPM!

I have grave concerns about some of the other issues Kilrah brought forward, thank you.

All the best,
Konrad

 

[Konrad]

Kind of fun to actually look up the FCC ID #.
Here is an example for the XJT

FCC ID XYFW2409T

fcc.report

I have to question the unique antenna adaptor requirements.

 

[Wayne]

At Aloft I was very reluctant to sell any video transmitters as very few actually were legal to sell in the USA. When I started to see some of the big companies selling them with BS disclaimers about needing an FCC license we joined in and offered a few. When FrSky came out with the MPM we offered them for a short period, but as I did more research on these I decided this was a bad idea and also shared this with Frsky. Perhaps this had some effect on them as soon they dropped it.

In my personal opinion it is a bad practice to fake another brands RF. I have this stance for a few reasons.
1- Reward the manufacturer that developed the RF system and buy their gear.
2- Fake components MUST have a lower price, they will typically have some shortcuts to achieve maximum money savings. They really are not interested in making a GREAT product or even building a brand, just selling units in the short term. In other words, I just don't trust them.
3- Fake companies do not promote the hobby or reinvest into the hobby. This is sort of a recap of #1 above, but the companies that have developed their own RF and products are the ones that are advancing the hobby for all of us. Where would we all be if not for the Spektrum, Futaba, Hitec, Sanwa, Graupner, Jeti, JR, FrSky, etc? We have seen huge changes in the last 10 years. We have seen far more powerful features in our transmitters and receivers as a direct result of the R&D from these companies and the goodfolks at OpenTX and a countless other bunches of folks that have invested time and money to advance us all.

I fly some big planes, some fast planes and some planes that I really love. I invest in the gear I think best to keep them and everyone around me safe. I fly FrSky.

 

[HENNY]

Wayne you are correct and this is the right answer for the hobbiest, the manufacturer and reseller.

 

[Haoyang Wang]

Long gone were the days of analog radio, when all brands of transmitters and receivers spoke in the same tongue...

 

[Konrad]

Did they? I recall that Neg/Pos shift stuff that Futaba brought to the Scene! Prior to Futaba it was all positive. Then there was the 3 wire 4 wire servo. And do we need to mention Airtronics center negative wire? It has always been FUBAR!

 

[HENNY]

I think Haoyang Wang means the transmission method which was basically analog transmission using a form of PPM (Pulse Width Modulation) No error checking and mostly all running between 20 and 50msec refresh rate. The positive and negative stuff was an attempt at encryption in its most basic form.

 

[Konrad]

It is my understanding that the neg. shift was to save on the cost of a transistor. Back then a transistor was a discrete component and cost money. This broke away from the de facto standard used by all others OEMs. This had the added benefit (for Futaba) of keeping the customer in the Futaba sphere of influence. I guess breaking away from established norms and standards might be thought of as encryption. I just think of it (ignoring standards) as making things unnecessarily difficult. (Like trying to read my writing) I make an effort to avoid firms that don’t hold to standards.

I don’t know what is meant by “the days of analog radio”. By your definition this would cover most radios. I go as far back as 27 mHz. I had op-amp mixing circuits (Ace Silver Seven) in the mid 70’s. In the same time period we had discreet (and, nand, or, nor) gates with the introduction of the digital proportional radio. Then in the early 80’s the micro processor infected our hobby with the computer radio. We then got the “benefits” of digital filtering PCM (pulse code modulation) and the like. I think some think the days of 72 mhz were much simpler. I’m here to say that wasn’t so.

 

[Haoyang Wang]

I was thinking on the protocols between transmitters and receivers. The servo wires are not as chaotic. Connector types and pin orders are something you can reason about, measure with a multimeter, and work it out by yourself.

(Connectors and pin orders for little servos are crazy. Horizon Hobby themselves use 2 different connectors with different pin orders: "nanolite" vs. "ultra-micro".FrSky VD5M uses yet another type of connector. If you mess up the pin order, servo case would melt, smoke coming out. Still, you can work it out by yourself.)

 

[Konrad]

Even back then one could not reverse the shift in Tx's that did not allow reversing without a soldering iron.

Plugging in a negative center servo connector into a positive centered bus bar (normal JR Connector) fried the amp or at least the blocking diode.

So is it today with encryption and the super computers we all have on our lap tops. Given enough resources any anti consumer activity can be dealt with.