Humper and RadioCopier systems

[Matthewdupreez]

Some of you may know of the brands Humper (Jumper) and the new startup RadioCopier (Radiomaster). What you may not know is the history. I really do try to keep out of this sort of stuff, but seems they are now threatening my business and I do not take lightly to that.

The key player in the startup of both of these companies, and many others is a single person. I have been doing business with this individual for many years as he has worked at a number of places. He basically got his start with FrSky in the early years, I think he was in sales. He left them went to work for Hobby King and left there and eventually played a roll in starting up Humper. At the time Humper made cheap RC products that mostly didn't work. We bought some of those products but they could not be sold as they were very poor. Then they got into transmitters, but they did not sell. Hmm, what to do? Oh, hey let's copy the FrSky QX7 circuit for circuit and see if that will sell. It worked, they got some sales, hmm, how to boost the sales ? Let's attack FrSky publicly and claims all kinds of made up stuff. OK - That is working great, let's copy the X10 now, again circuit by circuit and this time spend money getting endorsements from youtubers with low morals and have them spread more lies and attacks on FrSky.

For all of this I remained pretty quiet.

Then the partners of Humper tossed out this original guy for some reason and he started a copy of the copy and now we have RadioCopiers.

I was still on their mailing list and they are eager to get sales so they kept emailing me about their coming clone radio. Ughh. I sent them this email to get them to stop:



Here is the response:


For the record I have posted very little on the subject, and only to set the record straight.

To be clear, these companies despite their claims have no engineering staff, have no R&D and do nothing to further the hobby. They only steal from other companies. As far as I know they have no service centers and no technical support. They do not have a legal RF system as they have lied to the FCC to gain a certificate for their MPM module. They are banned from competitions and events due to insurance not covering MPM modules as they are guessing at guide codes from reputable manufacturers.

Aloft Hobbies will have nothing to do with these companies or any of their sister companies. We do our best to track down quality manufacturers that make this hobby a better place.

it's all very well to whine...
but coincidentally this forum looks like it was copied directly from the flitetest forum.... is that a coincidence that it looks, feels and acts like the flitetest forum......
if what i think is true, then maybe some more work is needed here.....

and for all we know your "example emails" could very well be fake, for all we know you might be worried that radiomaster might become to popular,

just giving another perspective

 

[Konrad]

it's all very well to whine...
but coincidentally this forum looks like it was copied directly from the flitetest forum.... is that a coincidence that it looks, feels and acts like the flitetest forum......
if what i think is true, then maybe some more work is needed here.....

and for all we know your "example emails" could very well be fake, for all we know you might be worried that radiomaster might become to popular,

just giving another perspective

FliteTest!!! Those are fighting words. Here logic rules. Unlike at Flitetest were the evangelical Christians actually think theology is a legitimate explanation of engineering principles. That is flight is possible because of god's will.

Before you start to cast aspersions on a man's integrity, let me give some advice. Do your research. This forum is tied to a an online hobby shop, Aloft Hobbies. Wayne the owner of Aloft Hobbies has been very generous in letting folks discuss the failing of products he sells. He allows, actually encourages that products be discussed warts and all, in the hopes that it helps his customers select the best product for their needs. It also helps him give feedback to his supplier to improve the products.

Wayne even tolerates my tirades on the poor documentation and what I think is poor engineering from FrSky. Some might think my low opinion of FrSky's engineering is hurting his sales. FrSky is a major source of sales income. This points to his commitment to improving the products he sells. The truth is that I don't have any effluence over anybody and don't have hope that my observations (tirades) will have any impact of FrSky!

Now it is well documented that the one of the driving forces with Jumper and RadioMaster is the same man that got his start at FrSky. He is a salesman and not an engineer. He has taken intellectual property form his previous endeavors and carried this over to his next. He has done this without adding any engineering value to the product. In the west this is though of as stealing intellectual properties. In the short term the customer might benefit from the lower cost as the new firm (Jumper and Radiomaster) didn't have to invest in the engineering.

Now I'll say that these new firms having as a salesman as the driving force are quick to make promises that the public wants. Making promises is not the same as solving engineering hurdles to bring these promises to fruition.

Aside for the issue of ethics associated with intellectual properties there is the problem of legalities with RF transmission. (Unlike what you indicated were you think the MPM is transmitting at too high a power. That may not the case). It has to do with pollution the RF spectrum. The MPM has only been "approved" for the transmission of one of the protocols and at 1/10 the actual radiated energy. This is fraud and will come back to hurt the firms and the resellers should the USA FCC and DOJ get around to enforcing the regulations on the books. (Yes, FrSky got a little excited and joined the MPM movement but soon realized the error of their ways and dropped support for the MPM).

The MPM is a great product for the customer but as of now has not been properly brought to market. And as such is hurting the market by taking away sales from those that are trying to work within the regulations. This hurts firms that are trying to work within the constraints imposed by the regulations and ethics. Should the powers that be enforce the regulation currently on the books Jumper and RadioMaster will be put on the same level field as FrSky.

Manufacturing an open source product such as the MPM is not an engineering feat. Getting it properly approved such that it will pass regulatory scrutiny is.

In the mean time this questionable product (Jumper and RadioMaster's MPM) is hurting sales of products that are regulatory compliant. This is why FrSky has had to encrypt their new advancement in tech to try to maintain a sales advantage, with the tech they invested in with their engineering resources. Is ACCESS more valuable to the consumer that the MPM? No, but it is a legal/ legitimate product to differentiate it from Humper and RadioCopier crap.

Now I wonder what are the reasons nobody has shown documentation where the MPM has been tested at full power on all protocols. I assume there is an engineering issue that hasn't been addressed in a cost effective manner. There is also the possibility that nobody has been able to legally acquire all the proprietary protocols.

So yes, we are all concerned with pariahs destroying the market place. To be clear I don't like FrSky's management. But they are far superior to Jumper and RadioMaster when it comes to issues I think are important to the health and growth of the hobby.

As to the look of the forum this is typical of the program from XenForo. But the content is so much better that the cardboard crash and burn stuff we see on FliteTest!

 

[Matthewdupreez]

FliteTest!!! Those are fighting words. Here logic rules. Unlike at Flitetest were the evangelical Christians actually think theology is a legitimate explanation of engineering principles. That is flight is possible because of god's will.

Before you start to cast aspersions on a man's integrity, let me give some advice. Do your research. This forum is tied to a an online hobby shop, Aloft Hobbies. Wayne the owner of Aloft Hobbies has been very generous in letting folks discuss the failing of products he sells. He allows, actually encourages that products be discussed warts and all, in the hopes that it helps his customers select the best product for their needs. It also helps him give feedback to his supplier to improve the products.

Wayne even tolerates my tirades on the poor documentation and what I think is poor engineering from FrSky. Some might think my low opinion of FrSky's engineering is hurting his sales. FrSky is a major source of sales income. This points to his commitment to improving the products he sells. The truth is that I don't have any effluence over anybody and don't have hope that my observations (tirades) will have any impact of FrSky!

Now it is well documented that the one of the driving forces with Jumper and RadioMaster is the same man that got his start at FrSky. He is a salesman and not an engineer. He has taken intellectual property form his previous endeavors and carried this over to his next. He has done this without adding any engineering value to the product. In the west this though of as stealing intellectual properties. In the short term the customer might benefit from the lower cost as the new firm (Jumper and Radiomaster) didn't have to invest in the engineering.

Now I'll say that these new firm having as a salesman as the driving force are quick to make promises that the public wants. Making promises is not the same as solving engineering hurdles to bring these promises to fruition.

Aside for the issue of ethics associated with intellectual properties there is the problem of legalities with RF transmission. (Unlike what you indicated were you think the MPM is transmitting at too high a power. That may not the case). It has to do with pollution the RF spectrum. The MPM has only been "approved" for the transmission of one of the protocols and at 1/10 the actual radiated energy. This is fraud and will come back to hurt the firms and the resellers should the USA FCC and DOJ get around to enforcing the regulations on the books. (Yes, FrSky got a little excited and joined the MPM movement but soon realized the error of their ways and dropped support for the MPM).

The MPM is a great product for the customer but has as on now not been properly brought to market. And as such is hurting the market by taking away sales from those that are trying to work within the regulations. This hurts firm that are trying to work within the constraints imposed by the regulations and ethics. Should the powers that be enforce the regulation currently on the books Jumper and RadioMaster will be but on the same level field as FrSky.

Manufacturing an open source product such as the MPM is not an engineering feat. Getting it properly approved such that it will pass regulatory scrutiny is.

In the mean time this questionable product (Jumper and RadioMaster's MPM) is hurting sales of products that are regulatory compliant. This is why FrSky has had to encrypt their new advancement in tech to try to maintain a sales advantage, with the tech they invested in with their engineering resources. Is ACCESS more valuable to the consumer that the MPM? No, but it is a legal/ legitimate product to differentiate it from Humper and RadioCopier crap.

Now I wonder what are the reasons nobody has shown documentation where the MPM has been tested at full power on all protocols. I assume there is an engineering issue that hasn't been addressed in a cost effective manner. There is also the possibility that nobody has been able to legally acquire all the proprietary protocols.

So yes, we are all concerned with pariahs destroying the market place. To be clear I don't like FrSky's management. But they are far superior to Jumper and RadioMaster when it comes to issue I think are important to health and growth of the hobby.

As to the look of the forum this is typical of the program from XenForo. But the content is so much better that the cardboard crash and burn stuff we see on FliteTest!

kindly realise that not every one can afford the "GOOD QUALITY STUFF"
And that actually "The cardboard crash and burn stuff" is great for training on.

you really should put yourself in someone else's shoes when you reply with such harshness, maybe just maybe they know something you don't.

 

[Konrad]

Buying Junk is false economy!

I with too much money might be able to afford junk. But if one is limited in funds it is best to buy the best once, rather than buy junk many times over. This is part of the value equation. The idea is NOT, he with the most toys wins. I am putting myself in their shoes, as I want folks to learn from my mistakes/ experience. Time and time again in this hobby buying cheap means buying twice. I for one can't afford that. I assume you (most) folks are in the same boat.

So learn form my life experiences and save your money to buy the best! (What is the best is open to debate. But most agree Jumper and RadioMaster are NOT the best).

FliteTest's fold and fly is great for low emotional entry level stuff. But the fact that the material can't hold a nice curve placed huge constraints on the ability to make airfoils that actually performs well at high coefficients of lift (recover from a stall well). Not sure how a poor stalling model makes a great trainer.

I honestly haven't been on Flitetest's site in years. But as I recall the main goal in their video was the "entertainment" value of having their "Fool" crashing models all over the place.

As to harshness it was you casting aspersions on the integrity of Wayne. Please step back and take a look at yourself in the mirror. You are here looking for validation for your desire to buy sub-standard equipment. I have tried to guide you to a better use of your hobby dollar. You will not find anybody here that will give you an honest blanket recommendation to purchase Jumper or Radiomaster. They are dead end tech. That is they are on the last gasps of functionality with ACCST. The future is ACCeSS, ISRM and Ethos. The latter, Ethos is early in the development cycle. So it won't replace OpenTX any time soon.

 

[getsuyoubi]

I'm completely with Konrad here - and I don't even own any FrSky products (yet). The fact that Wayne lets someone argue in favor of Humper and Radiocopier on HIS forum speaks volumes about his integrity, because it could hurt HIS business if people fell for those arguments.

 

[Nigel]

but coincidentally this forum looks like it was copied directly from the flitetest forum.... is that a coincidence that it looks, feels and acts like the flitetest forum......

It probably looks like the Flite Test Forum... because it's a forum. There are hundreds if not thousands of RC forums online, and a lot of them use the same software, and many of the softwares share similar functionalities and organizational defaults. If you've been following Flite Test long enough, you'll know their old forum was entirely different - our forum existed in the form it is today before Flite Test changed over to their newer styling - which you are likening to ours.

 

[Wayne]

Wow, had not seen this thread for a while.. But OK - Think you upset Konrad.. LOL

The Forum looks like another, well, there are basically 3 popular forum softwares out there, so yeah, they all sort of look the same. I just checked and you are correct, FT are using the same software that we do. Good for them, I consider it the best one out there. I honestly do not use their forum and have never spent much time there. I used to contribute to RC Groups a lot, and I wanted better software than they had, this is it. I'm very pleased with the software.

Am I telling the truth? I guess I go by my online reputation to back up that I am telling the truth. But you are right, you should ALWAYS question the source of your information!! If you really care about the subject, maybe dig a bit deeper and see if you can figure out who has been lying and who has been honest. Never an easy thing.

I'll simply state that I have worked hard to promote the hobby and aviation all my life. I feel lucky to have Aloft Hobbies and my wonderful staff and customers. I'm at a point where I really just want to enjoy my hobby and share it with others. I have some ideas for our local community to help grow the hobby and maybe promote our employees into the next phase of flight.

When it comes down to it, I don't care what radio you buy as long as it is safe and you get to enjoy the hobby.

 

[Doc James Hammond]

Buying Junk is false economy!

I with too much money might be able to afford junk. But if one is limited in funds it is best to buy the best once, rather than buy junk many times over. This is part of the value equation. The idea is NOT, he with the most toys wins. I am putting myself in their shoes, as I want folks to learn from my mistakes/ experience. Time and time again in this hobby buying cheap means buying twice. I for one can't afford that. I assume you (most) folks are in the same boat.

So learn form my life experiences and save your money to buy the best! (What is the best is open to debate. But most agree Jumper and RadioMaster are NOT the best).

FliteTest's fold and fly is great for low emotional entry level stuff. But the fact that the material can't hold a nice curve placed huge constraints on the ability to make airfoils that actually performs well at high coefficients of lift (recover from a stall well). Not sure how a poor stalling model makes a great trainer.

I honestly haven't been on Flitetest's site in years. But as I recall the main goal in their video was the "entertainment" value of having their "Fool" crashing models all over the place.

As to harshness it was you casting aspersions on the integrity of Wayne. Please step back and take a look at yourself in the mirror. You are here looking for validation for your desire to buy sub-standard equipment. I have tried to guide you to a better use of your hobby dollar. You will not find anybody here that will give you an honest blanket recommendation to purchase Jumper or Radiomaster. They are dead end tech. That is they are on the last gasps of functionality with ACCST. The future is ACCeSS, ISRM and Ethos. The latter, Ethos is early in the development cycle. So it won't replace OpenTX any time soon.

You know in my tool kit I have a really old hammer...I bought it cheap but its been with me for years, and its only had two new heads and one new shaft.

Doc.

 

[Konrad]

Yep, I still have my granddad's old knife. I've replaced the blade 3 time and the handel twice but it's still his old knife!

 

[HENNY]

I have my mother's slow cooker, have changed the power plug three times, but still not working. Oh just realized you have to plug it in.

 

[HOQUIAM]

Hey guys;
With the way this converstion is going, how do you explain the intrest in aquiring a new X20?

Hoquiam

 

[u2builder]

First really new higher end radio from Frsky in 5 years. New, exciting, touchscreen, new menu ETHOS based operating system, positive comments by Beta testers and early adopters and Wayne, ergonomics perceived to be great by commentators, dual bands, ACCESS. Pretty much all the bells and whistles.

Unfortunately no OTX option, a roadblock for OTX users with many models like myself and can't offer ACCESS mode; sharing with other radios I have. Even if there is a conversion, it is in the future, and may be tedious. Right now there is a new firmware update every few days it seems but eventually this may settle. Probably a good choice for a new Frsky customer looking for a decent radio.

ETHOS is popular because OTX is a bit difficult to master. Really it is only the Mixer (and maybe the Logic) that is difficult. The rest is easy. I think if the OTX team added a menu based library of mixers to Companion OTX would be easy peasy.

 

[Konrad]

Hey guys;
With the way this converstion is going, how do you explain the intrest in aquiring a new X20?

Hoquiam

What way is this conversation going? What bearing does Humper and RadioCopier have with the X20? Humper and RadioCopier can't run ACCeSS or Ethos. They are old dead end tech!

As u2builder notes the X20 is new. Other than that, there are few if any reasons to go with the X20 from the current offering from FrSky running OpenTX and ACCeSS.

The touch screen Is a negative for me, Oily fingers and just general navigation is uncomfortable. My understanding of RF propagation makes Dual Band (2.4 gHz and 900 mHz) a non starter as it can't provide real redundancy at full baud rates.

I find the line commands or more to the point mixer logic far superior to canned libraries! It is the mixer logic that is the strength of OpenTX. It is this logic that can now be found with the lesser radios. (OpenTX is the only thing that even make these lesser radio a market contender).

Looking at the spec sheet the X20 has nothing that would drive me to move from my X-Lite. In fact the new Ethos is a liability when looked at against the proven OpenTX. This is because FrSky has historically been very poor with their software management. Again u2builder mention this.

Having held an x20, I can say that ergonomically the X20 is the best feeling TX in the FrSky line! If one adds a dual anchor harness it would even surpass the X9E in being a very stable platform.

Ethos is popular? I don't think it is in the market place. Surely not long enough for the public to have much exposure to it. There is a lot of hype right now. I hope that Ethos can make it comfortable for those that like menus. But I hope it doesn't become restrictive like we have seen with most other menu driven programs. With today's master/slave menu driven programs I break out in a cold sweat if I have to program a 6 servo glider!

I for one am on the fence about Ethos. (I haven't played with it) But what I know of its goals don't apply to me, as I love the freedom of OpenTX. Now if it can make programing easier for some and still keep the power we first found in the 90's Multiplex Profi 4000mc I would say that it is a move in the right direction.

Now I fly fixed wing and sailplanes. I'm not attuned to the needs of the quad copter pilot.