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Getting old! (No guts no glory!)

I think i will join in and say the following. Yes you're lamenting the loss of the plane but i've seen plenty of other R/C pilots that would have frozen and not tried to keep flying the plane causing a different situation where other pilots/ spectators end up in danger. My flying instructor taught me that a pilot's first job is to fly the plane at all times and to that end, where you had an aircraft with a mechanical issue, you kept control of it and got it on the ground with out endangering anybody, is good flying in my book.



Hank
 
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I remember watching a race, they had a mid air that clipped the tail off the model. This big and heavy 3 meter was headed right for the pilots grouped on the cliff, the pilot managed to move the plane with just ailerons and flaps. It crashed just far enough away to avoid people. I have no doubt it would have nailed many of us if he had done nothing. (Konrad, it was one of your favorites, a Strega.)
 
I remember watching a race, they had a mid air that clipped the tail off the model. This big and heavy 3 meter was headed right for the pilots grouped on the cliff, the pilot managed to move the plane with just ailerons and flaps. It crashed just far enough away to avoid people. I have no doubt it would have nailed many of us if he had done nothing. (Konrad, it was one of your favorites, a Strega.)
Another one bites the dust...

Doc.
 
I remember watching a race, they had a mid air that clipped the tail off the model. This big and heavy 3 meter was headed right for the pilots grouped on the cliff, the pilot managed to move the plane with just ailerons and flaps. It crashed just far enough away to avoid people. I have no doubt it would have nailed many of us if he had done nothing. (Konrad, it was one of your favorites, a Strega.)
Was that when Ken at an ISR ran down the Strega that was so slow it looked parked out on the race course?
 
I see the posted results for the last race are in. I did a lot better than I thought, and this was with 2 zeros (DNF).

As I crashed on the 1st of the 2 up heats I did not race the second one, hence the 2 zeros. I could have asked to carry the 2nd over to the next round and fly 3 in a row. But to be honest I wasn't in the proper mind set to race right after loosing my ship to such a stupid move.
 
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Damn, said with crocodile tears, they have called another F3F race for this Sunday (14th). I was actually hoping that I had another week to prepare my Freestyler 5. But as it looks right now I'm not going to be able to field my Freestyler 5.

So I'm now trying to figure out what I will use as my F3F racers for Sundays race. After all I'm out of Redshifts! So in the running are 2 glass Stegas, 1 Alpha 2.8, and a Schwing Corsa 108.

If you have been following my growth in F3F you know how much I don't like the Stregas. But they are a light glass build. And looking at the wing planform I'm surprised at how good it actually is, for as dated as Strega is. I still don't know what is going on with the Alpha 2.8 planform. But that's about the best I can say for the Stregas.

Now looking at the tails I see why I like the Alpha 2.8 over the Stregas. Its tail boom is 25mm longer than Strega and the V-tail angle is more acute (actually less obtruse). This gives the Alpha 2.8 a strong advantage in directional control and allows for stronger aileron inputs for a much faster roll. The down side is that my Alpha 2.8 is a carbon lay up and might be bit heavy for the SLoT on low lift days.

Now I show why we love the Freestyler series. The tail boom is another 20mm longer they have a lot larger V-tail surface area and the V-tail is again showing a less obtruse angle.

I did like how the Schwing Corsa 108 performed at the last race in the higher winds. She was as good as my light Redshift but with much better directional control. The down side of the Schwing Corsa 108 is the same as the Alpha 2.8 in that she has a high wing loading even with no ballast slugs installed.

I'm thinking of using my Stregas if the early day lift is light. And moving to the Schwing Corsa 108 if the winds come up later in the day.

3 wing tips planform.jpg

3 plus corsa 108 wings.jpg
Strega Alpha V-tail.jpg
Alpha vs Freestyler 5 V-tail.jpg
 
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Well, we (NCSS) held our 7th race of 2022. Again I was against a steep learning curve! The SLoT is a very technical flying sight! (read a plane grinder). for the first half of the day the winds where such that we actually had front lift and reverse flow back side lift. You can picture this as two opposite wind direction. So flying over the ridge you would get positive airspeed with the center having a very dead turbulent center and going a bit further aft reverse flow (read super stall) with a vertical lift component).

From the advice I got from @Pinepig (Charles) I landed making a run along the front ridge at low level with the flaps partially out to slow down the speed. When I got to the landing zone I yawed in to the wind. To keep from overshooting the face I added full flaps (and maybe pulled up the nose). Much to my horror the Alpha 2.8 zoomed up and was flying (moving) backwards into no-man's land. By the time I got the nose back down I was fully stalled and deep into the rear rotor! The last time I saw my intact Alpha 2.8 she was heading straight down below the ridge. I later found her at the bottom of the 150 meter cliff after having dug a 2 meter long ditch.

Looking back at all the back side crashes I think I see a pattern. That is I don't have enough down elevator movement. I'm able to get enough downward elevator to comp the flaps but don't have enough left over to maintain pitch attitude and heading. Recently I've learned that with OpenTX I can change the rate and expo on ether side of center independently. So while my rate for "up elevator" might be 60%, I can at the same time allow for 75% "down elevator". This bit of insight has cost me 1/2 a dozen racers.

Alpha 2.8 death copy 4.jpg
 
Hey Konrad,

Sorry to see that. Very impressive crash site though. I can’t say I’ve ever seen somebody measure out an R/C model crash site in meters.

Hank
 
FPS, I’m sorry Konrad, but you’ve just lost any credibility you may have had previously in my eyes:
1)The first thing a slope flier should do when setting up a model with flaps is ensure that when at full flap throw and full elevator compensation that there is further down elevator throw available, and that enough up elevator throw is there to take the elevator above neutral. This is done using ‘rates per flight mode’, and is in Mike Shellim’s F3f template instructions. It’s also easy to set up on other radios.
2) As soon as your model zoomed up, you should have pulled the flaps and got the nose down, then tried the crow again.
3) Had anybody been hit by your model, it could have been a repeat of Taiwan.
4) You said that you’ve crashed multiple models, but you’ve literally only just realised that you’ve had no down elevator to prevent pitching up in braking mode. Really?
 
FPS, I’m sorry Konrad, but you’ve just lost any credibility you may have had previously in my eyes:
1)The first thing a slope flier should do when setting up a model with flaps is ensure that when at full flap throw and full elevator compensation that there is further down elevator throw available, and that enough up elevator throw is there to take the elevator above neutral. This is done using ‘rates per flight mode’, and is in Mike Shellim’s F3f template instructions. It’s also easy to set up on other radios.
2) As soon as your model zoomed up, you should have pulled the flaps and got the nose down, then tried the crow again.
3) Had anybody been hit by your model, it could have been a repeat of Taiwan.
4) You said that you’ve crashed multiple models, but you’ve literally only just realised that you’ve had no down elevator to prevent pitching up in braking mode. Really?
Yes, much of my problem is in not having an adequately programed model program. Yes, Mike's program is very powerful. It wasn't until Mike brought it to my attention that I was aware of the power in OpenTX to program the rates and expo on ether side of center stick. (thank you Mike). Thank you, I'll see about tying the rate to the flight mode.

Before, all my models have had about 20% head room for down after the flap compensation. This now appears to not be enough.

Yes, I removed all the flap after seeing that full down did not change the attitude of the model. The SLoT landing zone has very narrow zones along the top of the ridge. This is a very technical site. Heck, even the USA FAI team captain crashed his ship landing yesterday.

As to bystanders getting hit or damage to property we have strict safety protocols. The CD is actively making sure all participants are flying to the standards need to be safe. The NCSS places safety at the top of all activities. While we have to demonstrate a certain level of flying competence to fly at the SLoT, I admit I'm not the at the top of the pilots list. But with practice my flying proficiency is improving, both in flying the SLoT and my general slope flying skills. Other than myself, nobody has been hit by my flying. I take offense that you are implying that the club does not have safety at the forefront of our activities. I assure you nobody was in danger.

We have a large safety zone. You might recall that I had a ship where the ballast broke free. The loss of full control was great concern for all. But I had enough down, even with the major shift in the CG, to pilot the crippled ship away from all bystanders. And my last crash was as a result of me not having the proper tecnique to fly a ship with asymetrical lift and drag. And thanks to pilots like @Pinepig I now have that experiance!

I did not say I didn't have down elevator. I said I may not have had enough down. But if your ship is in the post stalled condition the amount of down really won't make too much difference.
 
Hey Konrad,

Sorry to see that. Very impressive crash site though. I can’t say I’ve ever seen somebody measure out an R/C model crash site in meters.

Hank
I didn't mention how long and wide the debris field was!:rolleyes::eek::cry: I think that would best be defined in acres.
 
Yes, much of my problem is in not having an adequately programed model program. Yes, Mike's program is very powerful. It wasn't until Mike brought it to my attention that I was aware of the power in OpenTX to program the rates and expo on ether side of center stick. (thank you Mike). Thank you, I'll see about tying the rate to the flight mode.

Before, all my models have had about 20% head room for down after the flap compensation. This now appears to not be enough.

Yes, I removed all the flap after seeing that full down did not change the attitude of the model. The SLoT landing zone has very narrow zones along the top of the ridge. This is a very technical site. Heck, even the USA FAI team captain crashed his ship landing yesterday.

As to bystanders getting hit or damage to property we have strict safety protocols. The CD is actively making sure all participants are flying to the standards need to be safe. The NCSS places safety at the top of all activities. While we have to demonstrate a certain level of flying competence to fly at the SLoT, I admit I'm not the at the top of the pilots list. But with practice my flying proficiency is improving, both in flying the SLoT and my general slope flying skills. Other than myself, nobody has been hit by my flying. I take offense that you are implying that the club does not have safety at the forefront of our activities. I assure you nobody was in danger.

We have a large safety zone. You might recall that I had a ship where the ballast broke free. The loss of full control was great concern for all. But I had enough down, even with the major shift in the CG, to pilot the crippled ship away from all bystanders. And my last crash was as a result of me not having the proper tecnique to fly a ship with asymetrical lift and drag. And thanks to pilots like @Pinepig I now have that experiance!

I did not say I didn't have down elevator. I said I may not have had enough down. But if your ship is in the post stalled condition the amount of down really won't make too much difference.
Mention of Taiwan here makes me want to add a little bit, while Konrad is shovelling up his gut pile.

So what actually happened?

The accident in Taiwan was bound to happen sooner of later and tragically ended up as a fatality with at least two main victims. You have a completely unpoliced national park along in which the public is allowed to, and has the right to, wander at will. Unfortunately this same park is where the Typhoon race has been held several times. I was not present, but I got a call within 10 minutes of the accident's occurrence.

While LongPan park can produce record breaking conditions for F3f slope flying, its actually a strip of land 1.5 to 2Km long and possibly 300 metres wide, bordered by the main road at the rear, and the slope face at the front, so the landing area requires a walk or maybe 75 Metres to the right of the flying area, otherwise the approach is directly behind the competitors - which, ironically as it turned out is deemed not to be safe.
Crossing the landing area, parallel with the road there is a board walk that the walkers, visitors and sightseeing families etc use. It's there due to the somewhat rough going through the elephant grass patches in the area. The boardwalk is safely constructed and elevated so you get a good view all around while also keeping dry if it's been raining. Consequently it's well-used, and the people who do use it, having nothing to do with the model aeroplane competition, rightly or wrongly often do not appreciate being stopped every time someone wants to land.

On this occasion, in extremely windy conditions, David Cortina from USA - And it could have been absolutely anyone - lost sight, or somehow lost control of his model while it was headed downwind across the walkway to the designated landing area. It was too low, and horror of all horrors hit a lady walking along the boardwalk carrying her very young son. She was apparently struck in the neck/head by the model which was of course fully ballasted, and to the absolute dismay of all was killed instantly. The woman's son was thankfully unharmed other than a couple of scratches as according to eye-witnesses she'd had the presnce of mind to throw you youngster away from her into the soft grass, as the model suddenly approached at high speed and she knew she could not avoid it. This brave woman actually saved her son but sacrificed her own life.

What followed can only have been, and probably still is a living nightmare for the poor woman's family, and also for the second 'victim' David Cortina who no doubt still lives with it.

Easy in hindsight: Dangerous models, flown in dangerous conditions, in an unpoliced and highly popular national park where the well-used public path crosses the model landing area, is a recipe for disaster. Frankly it was only a matter of time, and if any blame is to be apportioned, then it must fall on the shoulders of the organizers of the race.

The pictures below are self-explanatory.
20191102000192.jpg
1572832427-5dbf84ab7a562.jpg
 
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Sorry to hear about the prang, Konrad. S**t happens :-(

The good news is: there are no limits either to the amount of down or up elevator, or to the amount of compensation.

Well of course that's a lie :-)

There are limits - namely, the end points that you set when CALibrating the elevator channel. But within those limits, you have a lot of flexibility.

If you're saturating (i.e. hitting the CAL limit) before reaching full down-elevator on the stick, then clearly you need to reCAL for more down elevator travel (assuming your linkage allows). More CAL range will give you more working room to combine elevator compensation and regular elevator inputs.

If you've already got large CAL limits, but are not reaching the limit with the elevator rates that you have, then try increasing the elevator rate. Since it's a problem in Landing mode only, make it an FM-based rate (the setup guide describes how to set up FM specific rates).

- Mike
 
Thanks Mike (AKA @RC-Soar),

I fear I was being a bit melodramatic in my description of my crashes. While I think they all could have used a bit more down elevator response. I don't think any meet their untimely demise as a result of inadequate down elevator.

The first of the last three dramatic crashes was as a result of close to 2KG of ballast sliding aft 70mm. The very aft CG really isn't something I write my programs to address. The second crash was as a result of poor piloting in dealing with the asymmetric drag and lift from a stuck flap (wiper lock). While a better pilot could have had a better out come, having more down would not have been a key requirement. And this last crash was as a result of the narrow landing zone at my landing site on that day. This combined with it being the first time I had flown this ship fully ballasted and that I like my CG to go aft as the wing loading goes up, all lead to the stall with the loss of control (airspeed). No amount of down would help in this post stall condition.

I agree that having a bit more elevator response like 110% more at low landing speeds would be a plus. I like the idea of having this done automatically when the radio goes into landing mode. I really don't want to be throwing switches when low to the ground and things are changing fast!

Again thanks, I'll be adding flight mode rates this evening to my slope racers.

All the best,
Konrad
 
Flew race #8 for 2022 today with a Freestyler 5. As is normal for me I was using race day to trim and set up my racer!o_O
With a total of 20 to 30 minutes total flight (all but 5 of those being while racing) I'm getting rather comfortable with the Freestyler 5. I like how she tracks in and out of the turns. I think my ailerons where set for 16mm up and 14 maybe 15 down. With this small differential I was using 35 as an aileron to rudder mix (servo arms 5mm long). I was surprised at this large a number but with these small servo arms there really wasn't than much flipper movement at 35. ( I'm using @RC-Soar Mike Shellim's F3F templet).

My first flights of the day and I was horrified at how poorly the FS5 carved through the turn. As I pulled the elevator at about the half way point the ship just stopped. So I finished the heat making wide turns. When I landed I saw I had 8+mm of snap flap. Most folks are using 2mm or less. Took care of that and added a bit more rudder to the aileron to rudder mix and removed some aileron differential to help with the roll rate a bit.

I added flight mode rates (thanks Mike). This helped a bit taking off some of the pilot work load when landing. On the subject of landing I tried Charles @Pinepig run the ridge method with half flap, yaw into the wind, drop full flap and fly backwards over the landing zone. Remove some flap and move forward. This worked great I was able to land with zero ground speed time and time again. I was able to place the Freestyler where I wanted so that I was tempted to catch her in the air with my free hand. Ok, I didn't have a free hand but the helicopter lands where a joy to behold. I loved the landing so much that now I'm an advocate against the "two up" format. (2 heats for every landing). Charles and I both used this technique and it looked vastly different than the dive for the landing spot used by most other pilots today at the SLoT.

So how does the Freestyler behave against the Redshift? Well the Freestyler has much better directional control this makes the aileron differential and rudder mix much more stable (tolerant). Now the Freestyler feels a bit like a delta wing in that if pulling too much elevator the induced drag goes up rather fast. The Redshift seemed to keep her speed up through the turn. But with the directional control issue I had difficulties turning this turning speed into straight line speed. So at the end of the lap the Freestyler was/is faster.

In the off season I plan to try to repair at least 2 Redshifts to try to gain better directional stability, as I think there is more potential in the Redshift than I've demonstrated. But straight out of the box the Freestyler 5 is the better flying ship at the SLoT.
 
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The NCSS held their last F3F race for the 2022 season. As luck would have it some of the best F3F racers in the club were in Europe for the worlds FAI F3F championship. I was hoping this would allow me to move up in the standing.:rolleyes: Alas that was not to be the case.

I did get one of the Redshifts repaired and test flown prior to Sunday's race. I was really looking forward to running the pylons with this unusual bird. But while we had wind on the slope there was little in the way of lift. The Redshift has a rather small wing (high aspect ratio) and mine is a carbon F3F lay up resulting in a higher empty wing loading than most F3F ships. So in a demonstration of better judgment, something rare for me, I choose to use my F3B layup Freestyler-5. For most of the day, I wish I had an even lighter ship!

In the past this kind of air resulted in my struggling to just keep from landing out (crashing on the cliff face). Today with the great Freestyler I was actually able to learn a thing or two. I need to thank Darrell Zaballos for this. He said that if there isn't enough energy to get a good roll rate, to back off on the elevator as you pull through the turn. Duh!!!. Well that sounds easy. But my reaction has been that the slow roll results in being a bit late into the knife edge. So I've tried to compensate for this by pulling on the elevator. Wrong, wrong, this only results in the tail squatting kill any speed I might have had. It is difficult to realize you are making a slow turn and not try to push it.

I need to thank Ken Gregory for demonstrating this so dramatically with that snap flick coming out of a turn. :eek: It is real rare to see Ken make this kind of error. But the air really was that bad!

A noteable performance was Tom Carmody. He won most of the thermal lotieries and was able to put together some very good runs.

Now the surprise for me was seeing how well our club president Bill Green was doing with his very dated Avalon DP. Bill really was using this bird to it's full potential, with that big wing and the airfoil it uses. (Bill had dramatically crashed his Pitt Bull 2 in the last race)

As my standing in the race was already shot, I thought I'd try my dated Strega. Actually I flew the Strega to set a current bench mark in my mind to help assess the handling of the Freestyler. This cost me a round win. As luck would having I got some good air with the Strega and posted a time that was .29 of a second behind Ken Gregory's. Had I been flying the Freestyler there's a good chance I would have had a much faster time.

This is what is so great about F3F racing, there is so much to learn in every race.

2022 birds.jpg
 
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