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Freestyler 5 (Konrad's set up)
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Konrad
Very Strong User
Sorry, today I didn’t make it north.
Doc James Hammond
Very Strong User
An Aeroic Freestyler? No I wouldn't dare. In any case the wing design goes against much of what I preach.Hum, do you want your brand/livery associated with the Freestyler? I do have the gloss PPG catalyzed paints to do just that.
I'd love to see a Konrad camo scheme though.
Doc.
Doc James Hammond
Very Strong User
Hahaha...well you have been on the front end of it. But the Freestyler does serve and an example of the "Oar" wing as I call it.
My wing designs are actually horribly simple: Put the lift where its needed, and nowhere else, and then arrange the resulting curves in the lowest possible drag confiuration. Bingo - Done!
There is so much emphasis on the aerofoil(s) selection, but in fact the section(s) has far less of an influence on wing performance than people think.
Doc.
Konrad
Very Strong User
I have?
I've understood, or so I've though, the elliptical lift distribution since the 70's, the cusped airfoils since the 80's and the Schuemann trailing edge flow since the 90. I've understood you to have tied these together to get a benign stall with high aspect ratio wings. It is very hard to get your wings to "tip stall". Hence the hard turning high aspect ratio wing we see on the Redshift. I've always like the Boeing sine wave spar in your latter designs. I think the only real design issue I've had with your Redshift was the vertical area of the V-tail. We've gone over that in detail. The Freestylers have a better V-tail moment arm and vertical area to the Redshift.
While I think the Redshift has a better wing planform. The Freestyler has shown time and time again to be the better airframe over the Redshift. Now this year I was hoping to field the replacement to the Redshift. But for a host of reasons, that did not materialize. So I was forced to go with the proven airframe for the rest of 2022. You know how much I dislike following the crowd. But I really didn't have much of a choice. I had run out of Redshifts and ideas on how to improve their tracking out of the turn.
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Doc James Hammond
Very Strong User
"While I think the Redshift has a better wing planform."
Pity I concentrated on the wing in the design only - now 9 years ago. I think if I had really concentrated on every details through a series like the Feestyler enviably did, then I would be seeing a completely different airframe than the MK1 Redshift, and certainly different to the Freestyler 6. I'm unfortunately one of those people that as soon as I get a design done I have already thought of ways to improvove on it.
"The Freestyler has shown time and time again to be the better airframe over the Redshift."
Thats a broad statement for someone who concentrates so much on minutae. Anyway no excuses. Probably true but also possibly statistical: when you think that less than 20 RedShift 1's were ever made, compared to the Freestyler in hundreds. An admitted error on my part not to think more about the tail volume, and I simply did not consider the V-Tail angle for more than two minutes as I had no real indication that it was critical. Mea Culpa.
Doc.
Pity I concentrated on the wing in the design only - now 9 years ago. I think if I had really concentrated on every details through a series like the Feestyler enviably did, then I would be seeing a completely different airframe than the MK1 Redshift, and certainly different to the Freestyler 6. I'm unfortunately one of those people that as soon as I get a design done I have already thought of ways to improvove on it.
"The Freestyler has shown time and time again to be the better airframe over the Redshift."
Thats a broad statement for someone who concentrates so much on minutae. Anyway no excuses. Probably true but also possibly statistical: when you think that less than 20 RedShift 1's were ever made, compared to the Freestyler in hundreds. An admitted error on my part not to think more about the tail volume, and I simply did not consider the V-Tail angle for more than two minutes as I had no real indication that it was critical. Mea Culpa.
Doc.
Konrad
Very Strong User
LOL, Minutau, that's rich.
The wife claims I'm a right brainer and focus of the big picture and ignore the minutiae. As she says the devil is in the details. She is another stubborn PHD type (biochemist)!
Now true I focus on form fit and function. And in my builds of the 3 Redshift I go into details (minutiae) as to what I found, covering design (mechanical and aerodynamic) manufacturing, and flight characteristic. We covered this in detail. And the take away is that I love how the wing planform works. This is based on the wings of 3 Redshifts and the Schwing Corsa 108 they are great. And to add more impact, I bought the three Redshifts and one Schwing Corsa 108 with my own money. (I'm not a sponsored pilot).
There are only a hand full of issues that make the Redshift less than championship material. One of them is that I'm a second tier flier. And If I account for 15% of the fliers that is an issue. But aside from that, the strong points of the wing can be seen. It has proven to be rather difficult to stall/snap the wing. And when I have stalled the wing the air reattaches rather quickly. So the planform and airfoils appear to be working well together. So that design element is robust. Like I said I'm looking forward to the new ship with the other less critical issues addressed.
If I've been at the forefront, cause, of any misunderstanding as to how that planform performs please let me know. I've said from the very beginning that I like high aspect ratio wings. And your planform appears to offer a benign stall. This is counter to what most would think looking at those small cord wing tips. My flight testing has shown this to have worked and worked well. The Schwing Corsa with the mis-profiled tip airfoil, the sharp leading edge part line, aft CofG and aileron placement just proved how good the planform really is. So whatever control issues have been reported (by me and others) with the Redshift it is highly unlikely to be as a result of the wing.
But the Freestyler is the weapon of choice for many many flier and with good reason. Key amongst them is the quality of the build. Again I think you have addressed this with your new builder. Then there is the aerodynamic concerns with the tail. Again I hope the new ship addresses this. And last the fuselage cross section. Again the Freestyler has that covered. You admitted that you misunderstood the FAI nose requirements with the Mk-1 and that the new fuselage has a much smaller cross section than the Redshift MK1.
Looking at everything it is clear why the Freestyler is the better F3F ship. Having had both the Redshift mk1 and Freestyler 5 on my build bench I stand by my statement that the Freestyler is the better F3F ship. And unfortunately the record books also shows this to be true. Is the Freestyler the ultimate F3F ship? No, not by a long shot. Based on what I know of the upcoming Aeroic F3F ship and what I know of the Freestyler 5 I think the new Aeroic 3 meter has a lot of strong points over the Freestyler 5. But as the new Aeroic ship isn't available the Freestyler is still the gold standard!
The wife claims I'm a right brainer and focus of the big picture and ignore the minutiae. As she says the devil is in the details. She is another stubborn PHD type (biochemist)!
Now true I focus on form fit and function. And in my builds of the 3 Redshift I go into details (minutiae) as to what I found, covering design (mechanical and aerodynamic) manufacturing, and flight characteristic. We covered this in detail. And the take away is that I love how the wing planform works. This is based on the wings of 3 Redshifts and the Schwing Corsa 108 they are great. And to add more impact, I bought the three Redshifts and one Schwing Corsa 108 with my own money. (I'm not a sponsored pilot).
There are only a hand full of issues that make the Redshift less than championship material. One of them is that I'm a second tier flier. And If I account for 15% of the fliers that is an issue. But aside from that, the strong points of the wing can be seen. It has proven to be rather difficult to stall/snap the wing. And when I have stalled the wing the air reattaches rather quickly. So the planform and airfoils appear to be working well together. So that design element is robust. Like I said I'm looking forward to the new ship with the other less critical issues addressed.
If I've been at the forefront, cause, of any misunderstanding as to how that planform performs please let me know. I've said from the very beginning that I like high aspect ratio wings. And your planform appears to offer a benign stall. This is counter to what most would think looking at those small cord wing tips. My flight testing has shown this to have worked and worked well. The Schwing Corsa with the mis-profiled tip airfoil, the sharp leading edge part line, aft CofG and aileron placement just proved how good the planform really is. So whatever control issues have been reported (by me and others) with the Redshift it is highly unlikely to be as a result of the wing.
But the Freestyler is the weapon of choice for many many flier and with good reason. Key amongst them is the quality of the build. Again I think you have addressed this with your new builder. Then there is the aerodynamic concerns with the tail. Again I hope the new ship addresses this. And last the fuselage cross section. Again the Freestyler has that covered. You admitted that you misunderstood the FAI nose requirements with the Mk-1 and that the new fuselage has a much smaller cross section than the Redshift MK1.
Looking at everything it is clear why the Freestyler is the better F3F ship. Having had both the Redshift mk1 and Freestyler 5 on my build bench I stand by my statement that the Freestyler is the better F3F ship. And unfortunately the record books also shows this to be true. Is the Freestyler the ultimate F3F ship? No, not by a long shot. Based on what I know of the upcoming Aeroic F3F ship and what I know of the Freestyler 5 I think the new Aeroic 3 meter has a lot of strong points over the Freestyler 5. But as the new Aeroic ship isn't available the Freestyler is still the gold standard!
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2MUCH2DO
Strong User
So lots of the top pilots have told me there are airplanes that they thought were faster, but the freestyler has a couple of things going for it.
1. The damned ballast system actually works, and is easy, you can ballast all in the wings and keep it out of the fuse.
2. They share lots of common parts, which encourages people to trade up to the new model and/or buy used, which means there are more of them out there, which is a continued cycle. Its what the 4.5 (4 wings on a 5 fuse) is still the most popular even though there are fewer and fewer out there.
3. Number 2 probably is the biggest contributor to the fact that you can get them whenever you want.
1. The damned ballast system actually works, and is easy, you can ballast all in the wings and keep it out of the fuse.
2. They share lots of common parts, which encourages people to trade up to the new model and/or buy used, which means there are more of them out there, which is a continued cycle. Its what the 4.5 (4 wings on a 5 fuse) is still the most popular even though there are fewer and fewer out there.
3. Number 2 probably is the biggest contributor to the fact that you can get them whenever you want.
Doc James Hammond
Very Strong User
Hi 2MTD - couple of comments from me there:
1. My models have wing and fuselage ballast, and my fuselage ballast system - if used - works better than any bolt arrangement. Its faster, easier, more effective and actually shock absorbing in the forward direction. Wing ballast is same as.
2. My Mk 1 and Mk 2 Redshift Spada models all have common parts. Everthing can be changed with everything.
3. You got me. I have had delay, after delay, after delay. But I have actually improved - so now I'm only about 60 models behind overall. For the MK 2 Spada version the fuselage and V-tail CNC work is done, and the wing CNC will be done sometime in the next 2 months after a bit more fiddling, so MK 2 Redshift Spada will be flying this year, but probably towards the end of it.
Two things I can promise.
a) Though I won't sell this model as an F3f model per se, in the right hands and flown side by sidewith the competition, I can promise a model that will have the potential to out turn and outrun any current F3F-designated model EXCEPT for maybe one, and that's not the Freestyler.
b) After that I will make a really sleek X-Tail version and put it in the hands of someone who is more than capable of breaking all the records, and then let's see what happens.
Cheers and thanks for the interest.
Doc.
Wot he said...Doc.
Konrad
Very Strong User
Back to the Freestyler 5. I was surprised that I've never assembled the parts. Here I took the time to just see what I had. Yep, it's a 3m glider!
Now what shocked me was that the tail and wing don't align. That is the left V-tail is high by a gross 12mm. I attribute this to the floating spar not keeping the alignment. The fuse can rotate a bit while taping on the wings.
The Freestyler has over 1mm of clearance around the spar. It looks like I'll need to cut down on this clearance to say 0.1mm to hold the fuselage in proper alignment.
As I'm going to have to break out the paint. I thought I'd take care of some other issues on the right wing. The LDS system has caused some deformation of the top wing skin. You can also see the servo mounting pad dots.
Now what shocked me was that the tail and wing don't align. That is the left V-tail is high by a gross 12mm. I attribute this to the floating spar not keeping the alignment. The fuse can rotate a bit while taping on the wings.
The Freestyler has over 1mm of clearance around the spar. It looks like I'll need to cut down on this clearance to say 0.1mm to hold the fuselage in proper alignment.
As I'm going to have to break out the paint. I thought I'd take care of some other issues on the right wing. The LDS system has caused some deformation of the top wing skin. You can also see the servo mounting pad dots.
Konrad
Very Strong User
Since the V-tail mount had broken free (was free when I got it). I decided to focus there on correcting the V-tail alignment issue, rather than the joiner pass through window. I heated the mount to about 90°C and held the V-tail mount lifting the sagging side of the V-tail. And much to my surprise when cooled the V-tail is in alignment. I now need to clean up the inside of the tail boom of most of the epoxy to allow fresh undamaged resin to be applied over the V-tail mount.
This will mean a bit more work, but I'm much happier that the V-tail is in alignment.
This will mean a bit more work, but I'm much happier that the V-tail is in alignment.
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Doc James Hammond
Very Strong User
Konrad
Very Strong User
Not likely I tried not to heat the boom and I tried to apply only a rotational force along the axis of the boom. Really I focused on the V-tail mount. Now I do have some fears that I've degraded the epoxy of my earlier repair. I routered out some of the old repair to make room for new epoxy and carbon fiber.
Whatever I did, I now know the direction on the V-tail force as it is now perpendicular to the span of the wings.
Whatever I did, I now know the direction on the V-tail force as it is now perpendicular to the span of the wings.
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Konrad
Very Strong User
Been trying to set up the radio for the Freestyler 5. I hit a snag in that I can’t get the flaps up past the in-profile rigging. That is I can't get any flap reflex. The issue is that the LE of the flap will NOT go into the wing. It binds at the cut line. To address this I need to add epoxy surface wipers. I can’t fix this in time for Sunday’s F3F race. I now recall the previous owner having some flap issues. I wonder if this was it.
Anybody have another possible solution other than epoxy wipers.
I’m finding that with the supplied LDS the total flap movement is not up to my style. I’d like more aileron (up) and more flap (down). Are there longer servo arms for this style of LDS? I’m going to pay close attention to the Freestyler set up at Sundays race.
Now I do like the V-tail 5mm servo arms. I now get good V-tail action with no double centering and rather good use of the servo’s resolution. But this flap issue has taken some of the wind out of my sails.
Anybody have another possible solution other than epoxy wipers.
I’m finding that with the supplied LDS the total flap movement is not up to my style. I’d like more aileron (up) and more flap (down). Are there longer servo arms for this style of LDS? I’m going to pay close attention to the Freestyler set up at Sundays race.
Now I do like the V-tail 5mm servo arms. I now get good V-tail action with no double centering and rather good use of the servo’s resolution. But this flap issue has taken some of the wind out of my sails.
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Konrad
Very Strong User
Looking over this airframe and build, I'm coming to a new appreciation for the previous owners flying prowess. He was/is one of the better older pilots. Last year we started to see some deterioration in his flying. Some of us were thinking that father time was taking his toll. But now I'm not so sure as last year he was championing this bird. I don't know the exact condition of the airframe he was flying last year. But seeing what issues I had/have with this airframe I'm coming to a new appreciation for how well he did flying her.
As I received this Freestyler 5 I had interference with the V-tail control horn hoops. I also had fuselage servo arm interference with the slip on nose. This caused all sorts of double centering issues with the V-tail. Also with the 10mm long fuselage servo arms there had to be rather poor V-tail servo resolution. Then there is the broken V-tail mount.
Add to the V-tail actuation issues, when I got the airframe the ailerons had 5° plus slop! This couldn't have been fun to fly. Then there is the flaps, I doubt he was able to reflex them very far.
He is now back to flying a Drops and is now placing much higher in the standings. I think I've now learned the secret to his rise in the standing.
As I received this Freestyler 5 I had interference with the V-tail control horn hoops. I also had fuselage servo arm interference with the slip on nose. This caused all sorts of double centering issues with the V-tail. Also with the 10mm long fuselage servo arms there had to be rather poor V-tail servo resolution. Then there is the broken V-tail mount.
Add to the V-tail actuation issues, when I got the airframe the ailerons had 5° plus slop! This couldn't have been fun to fly. Then there is the flaps, I doubt he was able to reflex them very far.
He is now back to flying a Drops and is now placing much higher in the standings. I think I've now learned the secret to his rise in the standing.
Konrad
Very Strong User
Wow, I maidened this Freestyler yesterday at the SLoT. The winds were straight on to the hill face at 23m/s (50+mph in old money). I was going to try Tic Point but having never flown Tic Point I thought I might have too many new variables to deal with should I have any problems (new ship and new hill, Thanks to @Wayne for talking me out of Tic Point for my maiden). I admit that 23m/s is a bit much for a maiden. But the Freestyler is a known quantity and I had most of the critical parameters set up (borrowed from good known ships). I felt I was safe. I maidened at 2.09kg with the CG at 103mm. Ailerons set at 16mm up and 14mm down. Elevator set at 4mm. I threw her out only to have her climb up fast. I gave down and she went forward just fine at this weight. I checked all my flight modes and made the minor trim changes. But at my light weight, I really couldn't get her to run well. Made my landing with no issues. I landed a bit further back than I was aiming but at my light wing loading I actually was surprised at how well she traveled up wind.
My second flight was with all the brass I had ( the wing tube and joiner full of brass) @ 3.210 kg, no real changes to the trim. But now I could turn. I found that 4mm up was still a bit weak even with a full load of brass. I also learned that the CG at 103mm to 104mm was still a bit nose heavy as in knife edge she pulled (drifted) towards the canopy.
I played a bit with the aileron differential. I'm really impressed at how little differential I'm needing. (I just love the added power of a large V-tail)! I made my second landing with full ballast and again the landing was fine. And a bit aft of where I wanted. This tells me that even with only 70° or so of down flap I can trust them to slow down the Freestyler 5.
I made some experiments with the rudder coupling mix. and elevator comp curve. Again no surprises, made my 3rd landing just fine.
With only 3 flights ( I was fighting the setting sun) I'm very happy with the Freestyler. I'm now at about 4.5mm of elevator travel in race trim. I think I can use more. But I'll wait until after I've moved the CG back another 2mm. The servo resolution is 80 (I love the KST HS-8b with the 5mm servo arms)! The flap wipers worked great both in landing and speed modes.
While I'm not in full race trim as of yet, I'm happy that it looks like I have a solid proven airframe to work with.
My second flight was with all the brass I had ( the wing tube and joiner full of brass) @ 3.210 kg, no real changes to the trim. But now I could turn. I found that 4mm up was still a bit weak even with a full load of brass. I also learned that the CG at 103mm to 104mm was still a bit nose heavy as in knife edge she pulled (drifted) towards the canopy.
I played a bit with the aileron differential. I'm really impressed at how little differential I'm needing. (I just love the added power of a large V-tail)! I made my second landing with full ballast and again the landing was fine. And a bit aft of where I wanted. This tells me that even with only 70° or so of down flap I can trust them to slow down the Freestyler 5.
I made some experiments with the rudder coupling mix. and elevator comp curve. Again no surprises, made my 3rd landing just fine.
With only 3 flights ( I was fighting the setting sun) I'm very happy with the Freestyler. I'm now at about 4.5mm of elevator travel in race trim. I think I can use more. But I'll wait until after I've moved the CG back another 2mm. The servo resolution is 80 (I love the KST HS-8b with the 5mm servo arms)! The flap wipers worked great both in landing and speed modes.
While I'm not in full race trim as of yet, I'm happy that it looks like I have a solid proven airframe to work with.
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Konrad
Very Strong User
Have I mentioned I hate fade paint! This is because there are so many variable that really are beyond one's control as the repair painter. Some of these are; paint viscosity, nozzle size, air pressure, gun angle etc.
Here I show my attempt at a fade repair. You can see that fade is not the same. I tried to match the aileron fade on the repair of the wing. Much to my surprise one can see that the OEM had a wide variation in the fade stripe width. I noticed this as I tried the match the width of the aileron fade. You might see that the fade a a bit wide as I thinking that I might loose some as a tried to buff the dry fade to a gloss. The Idea of buffing the fade was because PPG tells me that they don't have a clear in their DelFleet line of urethane paint. (it looks like I choose the wrong paint). I don't show this but the buffing resulted in there being a yellow band showing up between the red and white.
So it looks like I'll need to sand off this paint repair and start again after I talk with the PPG salesman as to what I can use as a gloss coat. I'm not too upset with having to repaint this fade. The reason I'm not upset about the fade failure is because I put my thigh into the wet paint on the bottom of the wing!
As I'll have to mix up some white it really won't take too much effort to try again with the fade. The problem with catalyzed paints is once you mix it you can't store it. This is a bit of a problem in that I had to tint my red with some blue to match the red TUD used.
I am rushing the paint as I have a race on Sunday (maybe) but I'm happy with how the stab and fuselage repair came out.
Here I show my attempt at a fade repair. You can see that fade is not the same. I tried to match the aileron fade on the repair of the wing. Much to my surprise one can see that the OEM had a wide variation in the fade stripe width. I noticed this as I tried the match the width of the aileron fade. You might see that the fade a a bit wide as I thinking that I might loose some as a tried to buff the dry fade to a gloss. The Idea of buffing the fade was because PPG tells me that they don't have a clear in their DelFleet line of urethane paint. (it looks like I choose the wrong paint). I don't show this but the buffing resulted in there being a yellow band showing up between the red and white.
So it looks like I'll need to sand off this paint repair and start again after I talk with the PPG salesman as to what I can use as a gloss coat. I'm not too upset with having to repaint this fade. The reason I'm not upset about the fade failure is because I put my thigh into the wet paint on the bottom of the wing!
As I'll have to mix up some white it really won't take too much effort to try again with the fade. The problem with catalyzed paints is once you mix it you can't store it. This is a bit of a problem in that I had to tint my red with some blue to match the red TUD used.I am rushing the paint as I have a race on Sunday (maybe) but I'm happy with how the stab and fuselage repair came out.
Konrad
Very Strong User
Sometimes I can’t see the forest for the trees. My good friend Matt said : As I know that I can’t match the variables to get the same fade as the OEM, prep both wings and paint the fade for both wings at the same time. This way there is a good chance both wings will look balanced!
