Forza 2.5

[Hill Hobbit]

Good video that one! I’d say that was flying without ballast in about 10 - 12 mph, then when the thermal lift kicked in around the 19 minute mark it was hanging on the top of his bigger loops where some ballast would’ve carried energy much better.
I’ve never had the opportunity to ‘fly’ mine in as in the vid, always having to do slope edge/side landings in a hover.
This is where good flap throw of at the very least 80 degrees is essential JJ, and is a must when ballasted up. JJ, you had problems slowing your Hammer, well this baby when heavy isn’t going to play ball without big flap throw.
Flying mine later, on a slope with literally a 15 foot square landing area otherwise we’re on the rocks. It usually gets backed in, and my mates get me to land their models. I’ll do anything for a beer!
Cheers all
Jonty

 

[Hill Hobbit]

Doc, thanks for your kind comments!

 

[Doc J]

Good video that one! I’d say that was flying without ballast in about 10 - 12 mph, then when the thermal lift kicked in around the 19 minute mark it was hanging on the top of his bigger loops where some ballast would’ve carried energy much better.
I’ve never had the opportunity to ‘fly’ mine in as in the vid, always having to do slope edge/side landings in a hover.
This is where good flap throw of at the very least 80 degrees is essential JJ, and is a must when ballasted up. JJ, you had problems slowing your Hammer, well this baby when heavy isn’t going to play ball without big flap throw.
Flying mine later, on a slope with literally a 15 foot square landing area otherwise we’re on the rocks. It usually gets backed in, and my mates get me to land their models. I’ll do anything for a beer!
Cheers all
Jonty

I use the "Hover" landings too Jonty.

Taiwan is probably like your UK flying sites - loads of places to fly! Not many places to land...

Where do you fly in UK anyhow?

I like the 'helicopter' approach because:

1. Everyone flying can see you landing - no danger.
2. The landing speed is zero - no danger.
3. Really easy to push forward and then back up again if the attempt doesn't go according to plan - no danger.
4. Model damage is extremely unlikely - no dnager
5. With a little practise its not only easy to do, its actually a lot of fun.

But...you do need those flaps, and the correct proportional elevator comp.

Cheeers,

Doc.

 

[JJ Colorado]

Well, almost got to get a first flight with the Forza but the winds were 10-12 with only occasional gusts to 15. At 2.1kg I just didn't think I had enough wind for a first flight. But this is as close to a grassy LZ as we have in CO and hopefully I'll be back with the Forza for a flight when the winds are howling there as they normally do (near Cochetopa dome, SE of Gunnison).

 

[Konrad]

Looks fantastic. How are the aspen colors this year? I'll be in Denver for the next two weeks and planing to visit the hills to see the aspens in color. Sorry to say, that Gunnison is a bit too far being about 4+hours away. But I might need an excuse to hide from the family madness for a day. PM me if you are going out and I might plan my moutain color sightseeing around a visit.

 

[JJ Colorado]

Sorry, but when I'm off flying in the mountains I rarely log on to web sites. Colors were still out there for a while, but while the cottonwoods are colorful and holding their leaves, there are only a few aspens with leaves left (around Ute pass near Saguache). Although the winds were too light that day to test fly the Forza, we did get some paragliding in which is even more fun than flying RC. You have a lot more incentive to find lift when your butt is floating just above the tree tops. A few of us bring RC Gliders along with our Hang Gliders and Paragliders when we head out to fly.

 

[Wayne]

Love it! You might need to pick up a Carbon Flacon with the "BOB" pilot.

 

[JJ Colorado]

Already have a full size. Well, I used to have a Falcon (Wills Wing), now I have a Piuma (Icaro). Pics in flight and coming in for a spot landing.
The carbon Falcons do look nice, especially in orange (faster).

 

[Shoelace]

I use the "Hover" landings too Jonty.

Taiwan is probably like your UK flying sites - loads of places to fly! Not many places to land...

Where do you fly in UK anyhow?

I like the 'helicopter' approach because:

1. Everyone flying can see you landing - no danger.
2. The landing speed is zero - no danger.
3. Really easy to push forward and then back up again if the attempt doesn't go according to plan - no danger.
4. Model damage is extremely unlikely - no dnager
5. With a little practise its not only easy to do, its actually a lot of fun.

But...you do need those flaps, and the correct proportional elevator comp.

Cheeers,

Doc.

Hey Doc, Shoelace here with another dumb question. Are these, "hover landings," something that's relatively new? You may have seen my previous posts where I was someone who was an avid rc slope pilot back in the 80's and who is now back in the hobby. I've been watching all kinds of videos the last couple of months and have seen people land with 90° flaps at literally 0mph. I'd never seen that but it just seems so practical. "Back in my day," at Torrey Pines with fast ships we'd take a big sweep over the golf course and then land at some pretty fast speeds. I've never seen anyone land in the hover style until I started watching these videos. Are people making this look easy when it's actually extremely difficult or is it not so bad?

Thanks Doc!

 

[Red]

Hey Doc, Shoelace here with another dumb question. Are these, "hover landings," something that's relatively new? You may have seen my previous posts where I was someone who was an avid rc slope pilot back in the 80's and who is now back in the hobby. I've been watching all kinds of videos the last couple of months and have seen people land with 90° flaps at literally 0mph. I'd never seen that but it just seems so practical. "Back in my day," at Torrey Pines with fast ships we'd take a big sweep over the golf course and then land at some pretty fast speeds. I've never seen anyone land in the hover style until I started watching these videos. Are people making this look easy when it's actually extremely difficult or is it not so bad?

Thanks Doc!

Not Doc, but I will offer my 2 pesos.

Getting 90 degrees of flap is relatively new to the average modeler. Servo torque is far better better now which allows for more aggressive geometry. Back when I was flying F3B in the late 80's-early 90's the Futaba S-33 and later S-133 were the king of micro servos at a whopping 30 oz. or so lol. Anemic by todays standards. No such thing as a wing servo either. You had to mount them like men! lol Anyway, flap (all surfaces actually) geometry was a challenge, There was no specialized horns or hardware, you had to roll your own mostly. You had to limit flap down travel because you needed some up travel too for roll authority. Big travel meant a very real possibility control sloppiness or worse, flutter. So on a good set up you might se 50-60 degrees of flap at most back in the day.

Now, we have very high torque mini wing servos, fantastic linkage and nice molded airplanes that all make this way easier to achieve. It's not difficult with a well set up plane and often you can even hand catch. Good times!

 

[Wayne]

Hey Doc, Shoelace here with another dumb question. Are these, "hover landings," something that's relatively new? You may have seen my previous posts where I was someone who was an avid rc slope pilot back in the 80's and who is now back in the hobby. I've been watching all kinds of videos the last couple of months and have seen people land with 90° flaps at literally 0mph. I'd never seen that but it just seems so practical. "Back in my day," at Torrey Pines with fast ships we'd take a big sweep over the golf course and then land at some pretty fast speeds. I've never seen anyone land in the hover style until I started watching these videos. Are people making this look easy when it's actually extremely difficult or is it not so bad?

I'm not Doc, but a slept a a Best Western once..

This is pretty common these days. With modern designs and fast flap servos we can hover land at many slope sites. If you have smooth air in your landing area, it should be possible, but the last foot or two you want to pull up those flaps before they make contact with the ground and make that $$$ sound.

If your landing area has turbulence or has no wind blowing in it, you are better off to carry some ground speed.

Just read what Red wrote above - His points are very good as to why this did not exist until about 15 years ago. The servos and linkage designs just were not up to it. We now have some AMAZING servos to pick from that have perfect centering and amazing strength. Without 8 and 10mm thick servos that can hold many lbs of force.. Not going to happen.

Servos are so strong now that an error in setup may rip the flap right off the wing. (or worse)

 

[Doc J]

Hey Doc, Shoelace here with another dumb question. Are these, "hover landings," something that's relatively new? You may have seen my previous posts where I was someone who was an avid rc slope pilot back in the 80's and who is now back in the hobby. I've been watching all kinds of videos the last couple of months and have seen people land with 90° flaps at literally 0mph. I'd never seen that but it just seems so practical. "Back in my day," at Torrey Pines with fast ships we'd take a big sweep over the golf course and then land at some pretty fast speeds. I've never seen anyone land in the hover style until I started watching these videos. Are people making this look easy when it's actually extremely difficult or is it not so bad?

Thanks Doc!

Hey Shoe - nice to hear from you!

OK Energy managed landings: With the right model and setup (You have the right model) Its the easiest and safest way to land. No screaming back passes and everyone who is flying at the front of the slope can see you.

In most cases with my models you dont actually need crow settings i.e. including the ailerons mixed into the landing model with up settings - the flaps down alone will do the job. WITH the ailerons set in, the models can fly backwards in a good breeze. But its good to remember when you set the model up its good to get as much flap travel as you can.

Landing Method is easy: With the flaps set on the throttle side of the transmitter and variable from none to as much as you can get (Most people go stick down to deploy more flap and up for less - except Wayne who does it the other way round), you switch to landing mode via an appropriate switch which will give you the needed proportional elevator compensation as you deploy or raise the flaps, then work them on your left as you fly the model with your right hand.

Its good to try to practice "parking" a few times, nose into the wind to get the hang of any new model and what the landing characteristics might be. I'm happy to say that although my models look sharp and aggressive (I hope) they are all pussycats to land.

If you look at the video of Red Jensen landing the Spada prototype elesewhere here, you will see a classic exmple of what I call an energy managed landing. Safe, and light as a feather - but dont forget to flick the landing switch off just as you touch down or you might find you get scraped TE's on your flaps on anything less than a golf green.

Finally, very best of luck with the maiden - hope all goes very well.

Cheers,

Doc.

 

[Doc J]

I'm not Doc, but a slept a a Best Western once..

This is pretty common these days. With modern designs and fast flap servos we can hover land at many slope sites. If you have smooth air in your landing area, it should be possible, but the last foot or two you want to pull up those flaps before they make contact with the ground and make that $$$ sound.

If your landing area has turbulence or has no wind blowing in it, you are better off to carry some ground speed.

Just read what Red wrote above - His points are very good as to why this did not exist until about 15 years ago. The servos and linkage designs just were not up to it. We now have some AMAZING servos to pick from that have perfect centering and amazing strength. Without 8 and 10mm thick servos that can hold many lbs of force.. Not going to happen.

Servos are so strong now that an error in setup may rip the flap right off the wing. (or worse)

Dont Let this fool you...Wayne is known as Witch Doctor Umbungobungo when he's on vacation...he only SAYS has off to Hawaii...

Anyway, what he said too...

Doc.

 

[Doc J]

Not Doc, but I will offer my 2 pesos.

Getting 90 degrees of flap is relatively new to the average modeler. Servo torque is far better better now which allows for more aggressive geometry. Back when I was flying F3B in the late 80's-early 90's the Futaba S-33 and later S-133 were the king of micro servos at a whopping 30 oz. or so lol. Anemic by todays standards. No such thing as a wing servo either. You had to mount them like men! lol Anyway, flap (all surfaces actually) geometry was a challenge, There was no specialized horns or hardware, you had to roll your own mostly. You had to limit flap down travel because you needed some up travel too for roll authority. Big travel meant a very real possibility control sloppiness or worse, flutter. So on a good set up you might se 50-60 degrees of flap at most back in the day.

Now, we have very high torque mini wing servos, fantastic linkage and nice molded airplanes that all make this way easier to achieve. It's not difficult with a well set up plane and often you can even hand catch. Good times!

Crikey Shoe - you have a lot of folks rooting for you!

Got to be a good thing.

Doc who is sleepless in Darkest China at this moment...its the drums...

 

[Wayne]

I forgot to mention with a bit of practice these landings are pretty easy. Like Doc said, just practice playing with the flaps out over the bowl with some altitude. Fly some patterns with more and more flap to get a feel for the plane. With Doc's planes you probably can not fly at full flap for too long as he is very generous with the flap size. (something I love) Get the the practice to adjusting the flaps to find the glide slope angle you would like. And by all means try different angles.

But before you do the above you NEED to adjust the flap to elevator compensation. This is another very important development that came along that makes all of this much much easier. As we add the flaps, we are also slowly adjusting the elevator to keep the plane "balanced". Without compensation you will be holding a large amount of elevator stick to keep the plane flying.

 

[Shoelace]

You guys are the best. Thanks for all the replies!

 

[JJ Colorado]

But before you do the above you NEED to adjust the flap to elevator compensation. This is another very important development that came along that makes all of this much much easier. As we add the flaps, we are also slowly adjusting the elevator to keep the plane "balanced". Without compensation you will be holding a large amount of elevator stick to keep the plane flying.

Agree, the Flap to Elevator mix is quite important. You might even want to use a curve. Having a little more down elevator than needed is better than too little. With all that flap hanging out there the last thing you want is the nose popping up, causing a stall with no forward airspeed to help recover. Do your initial flap testing with a fair amount of altitude just in case the mix is off.

When it is all sorted out, it adds a lot more LZ possibilities. If you aren't sure how much to mix, take a look at some of the setup sheets in build threads for similar gliders.

 

[Wayne]

Flaps are fun.

Agree, I like to have the nose drop down a bit when flaps are out. Goal is to drop altitude and avoid a stall without picking up speed.

Once you get good at it, you will impress people at the electric field (if you should ever go to one) as flying something like a Cessna with your new flap skills is great fun. aka, don't fly it like a Cessna, instead get those flaps going down 80 degrees, ailerons up, and point the nose at the ground for a slow dive and just a foot or two above the run way level out and do a super short roll out.

 

[Shoelace]

Flaps are fun.

Agree, I like to have the nose drop down a bit when flaps are out. Goal is to drop altitude and avoid a stall without picking up speed.

Once you get good at it, you will impress people at the electric field (if you should ever go to one) as flying something like a Cessna with your new flap skills is great fun. aka, don't fly it like a Cessna, instead get those flaps going down 80 degrees, ailerons up, and point the nose at the ground for a slow dive and just a foot or two above the run way level out and do a super short roll out.

You're making it sound easy... My guess is that it's anything but. Ha.

 

[Doc J]

You're making it sound easy... My guess is that it's anything but. Ha.

Its actually easier than it looks Shoe - a few practise deployments up in the higher beeze then a few goaround circuits and you will be in like Flynn.

It must be easy or I wouldn't be able to do it.

Chuck it off! You are in a for a whale of a time

Cheers,

Doc.