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E-Tracer build

Thanks Wayne.

Not looking to cut both skins.

I just didn't know if you could fold the control surface "open" (like adding the pull spring in a dlg) and slide the horn in that way with just a small notch for the part that sticks out (spoon?). vs cutting a slot that is most of the length of the horn.

the difference in strength and aerodynamics probably does not exceed the increased difficulty of the installation.
 
I'm not sure I undertsand what you are doing. Are you using an IDS system or a normal control horn?
 
normal control horn.

It's probably not worth the additional effort. I guess I can start by cutting the spoon area only and then see if I can install it from the back side. If not, then I can cut the rest of the way and install it normally.
 
These things are tiny. Definitely no room to sneak in from the inside without cutting just as much or more.
I installed them last night in traditional fashion.
Now... On to the linkage.
 
These servos are at a mechanical disadvantage only using a small amount of throw. The horn that I epoxied into the flap is a little lower than the others, so I had to trim my clevis and bend the all thread. They feel very mushy and can easily be moved. I will use silicone or goo to glue the servo down once everything is set. I really don't like the way they are working. Pretty noisy too,, but it might be my servo driver.
If needed, I will just cut the control surface again and epoxy in a taller horn to give more leverage to the servo and less to the control surface. I can easily move them with my finger tip.

Video of servo/linkage.
 
Are these MP Jet clevises ok?

IMG_2267.jpg
 
Clevisis look very nice. Good clean install on the tail servos.

This may be the first time you have used a tight tolerance servo? With a deadband of just 1 micro step you are going to hear a lot more noise from the servo as it is always trying to center, and the composite structure (carbon) tends to act as a guitar body and amplify the noises even more. But yes, cheap servo testers tend to make this worse, but it will make a lot more noise than a foam model. This is pretty darn normal. (Some of it can be from the receiver depending on what you are using.)

You do not want play in any of the control surfaces. Can we get a photo of the flap and aileron installs? Might help to make some suggestions. We all learn a ton on our first composite build, you are doing really good work.
 
Thanks Wayne. Its going ok, aside from my mistakes.

Do you want pics in addition to the video I posted above?

Would I be better off with a z bend at the control surface and a clevis at the servo?

Should I put a taller horn in? It just seems like the control surface has too much leverage against the servo and rods. There is not direct play as everything is tight, it just easily moves with my fingertip as seen in the video.
 
Sorry I had missed the video.

OK - I see what has happened. Those horns are intended to be on the top of the flap, not the bottom. When on the top, they actually have better leverage as they have the height of the control surface added to them. Since this is a bottom hinged flap you now have a VERY short control horn. So yes, I would suggest cutting some taller control horns and replacing the bent linkage. This should make things far better. The goal is to have a LOT of down flap throw. Typically for a plane like this one we are trying for almost vertical flap movement. 70 to 90 degrees. We use them as speed brakes and they really can make landing very easy and accurate once you get used to them. But you want to be careful and flick them back up just before touching down to avoid them hitting the ground or weeds, etc.

As an electric, I don't think it is as important to have that massive down throw, but I'd still like to see you have something like 50 or 60 degrees of down travel at your disposal. This is a very clean plane, and she is going to be hard to land on a flat field that is not pretty darn long without a good bit of flap.

Actually, I highly recommend you setup a Butterfly (aka Crow) mix. This is where the flaps go down, and the ailerons go up some. This makes the plane nice and draggy for landing, but also reduces the risk of a tip stall. I'll warn you not to put a ton of up aileron (AKA spoileron in this use) as it can set you up for a tip stall on a thin high aspect wing like this one, so maybe 10 degrees is plenty. The ailerons up also reduce the effectiveness of the ailerons in roll, but typically this is not a concern when landing, you should still have a ton of control left. (Just something to keep in mind.)

Depending on what radio you have, there are a ton of online references on how to setup a full Butterfly mix as it will also require elevator compensations to keep the plane flying rather level as the wing changes into this new shape. Some radios make this mix very easy to handle, and others make you fight for it.

I very much suggest getting the butterfly on a variable control. I typically use the throttle stick, and put the motor on a a slider, but if you fly mostly electrics, you will probably want to put the flap on a slider.

With some practice you will get really good at using this mix in flight, fine tuning along your approach and you will have better control over your landings than you have ever known. This is a skill well worth refining. Also, I use the same mix on a number of electric models, for example a Wilga that I have, and I love messing around with STOL landing that thing. My approach is nothing like a real Wilga, I fly straight down at the ground in full CROW and round out when just a couple of feet off the ground. Good times.
 
Ok.
When you say "on top of the flap", do you mean top side of the plane? Or, on top of the skin?

I don't see how you would get much more throw unless the horn was further from the surface. With the holes in the provided horns, they look like they are supposed to be sunk into the surface. Your prior comment was also to sink them in so they sit on the other skin. I couldn't find much online as far as pictures. I even looked up other TJIRC birds but most installs show IDS and the ones I found looked like they sunk them down inside the control surface.

I think I have some fiberglass horns I can use. I may buy some from you just in case mine don't work. Do you have time to get them out today?
 
Sale is on until I kill it.. LOL Probably into December sometime.

check this page:

The Magnus is a sister ship and think the hardware is pretty darn similar for the wing.

There are MANY different ways folks will use for the wing linkages. Molded models are well suited to use any of them. There is nothing wrong with running linkages on the bottom like most models typically do in the hobby. It is the easiest method, but longer horns will be needed with the bottom hinged flaps, and you may well need to flip the horn around backwards for full travel. A simple cardboard model can be made up to test different methods and geometry.

This particular plane has been supplied with hardware for the cross over drive setup. This is a short horn at the top, and the servo horn is pointing down, so the linkage will cross through the wing. Probably a better name for this linkage style.
 
Ok. He didn't use any of the supplied hardware in the kit for the Magnus.

So, you are saying that it is preferred(?) to have the servo control horn pointing towards the servo pocket cover (as I have it) but have the control rod cross through the wing and poke out the other side where the horn is sticking out (opposite of where my horn is) because it covers everything better and the control horn clevis hole is further away from the hinge line whereas I am right next to the hinge line.

Makes sense.
 
No - It is just one possible method. It is pretty common with bottom hinged flaps to use that method. I think later in that thread someone built with bottom horns, and someone else built with IDS (IDS or LDS are all internal, save that for a future build, it is the most difficult, but also the best.)

So the common methods are pretty much these: (listed in order of simplicity first)
1- The traditional with the bottom horn, similar to what you have going.
2- Cross Over where the servo is on the bottom and the control horn is on the top. (A little harder to install and get right, but less drag, and no issues with weeds.)
3- Internal -These are known as RDS, IDS or LDS. RDS is very specialized and pretty much a thing of the past. IDS systems are all the rage and for good reason, zero drag, and done right they will result in super tight linkage that is very responsive with no drag. But they are rather daunting on the first install. After that you learn and the future installs get easier and easier. These systems use special hardware kits and special servo trays and must be used with only top of the line servos. Any play in the servo will be magnified and result in too much play. (Your KST servos are a great choice for this sort of linkage.) Pretty safe to say all top competition planes use this sort of linkage today and I am seeing it spread into other parts of the aviation hobby.

When you buy a composite kit it will usually come with some hardware to work with one of these methods. Typically one or the other of the first 2 options as they are the cheapest and work with just about any servo the customer may want to use.

Pretty much any plane over $1,000 will be built with an LDS these days. If I was building a Tracer, I'd be using LDS. But that does not mean it is right for you, especially on your first moldie build. Stay with what you know and like.

By the way, I think the fastest gliders in the world use the bottom horn option #1 most of the time. These planes are hitting speeds over 400mph. Why do they use the bottom control horns? They are looking for simple and SUPER strong to avoid flutter and the big horns makes for relaxed geometry that can do this with great ease.

so there you go.. There is an argument for all of the above options. Who is right? This is why many manufacturers leave this up to the builder to pick what they prefer.

I know this is a bunch to absorb.. When you come up via slope flying you usually pick up on these issues as you progress through the planes, but I forget that much of this is voodoo from the electric side of the hobby. It is not discussed or not known in many cases. T%hus me trying to explain some of this.
 
Understood.
And, I appreciate your help.

I'll stick with what's easy on this one and move up from there.

Those DS planes are impressive. I visit the central coast often and see paragliders jumping off the mountain top but I don't see anyone slope soaring in the Morro Bay, Cayucos areas.
 
Give us a call next time you are in the area!! We can bring some slope trash to Sunset for you to play with. :)
 
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