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Chamomile Glider
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Konrad
Very Strong User
Sorry I have no experience with the Chamomile. But I do have a lot of experience with Pilot kits, they are exquisite! May I ask what does the sales page not cover?
alofthobbies.com
The only knock I would have with the Chamomile is that she only has a single flap servo. I like to mix my flaps to aid aileron rolls. To do that I’d need a 2 servo flap set up.
The KST X0-8 is almost a perfect servo for this model. If looking for a more economical option these servo have worked great for me in similar applications. They are fantastic when driven at 6V. I’d look for an ESC with a 6V switching BEC. Some of the Castle Creation ESC have these.
alofthobbies.com
alofthobbies.com
If using an 1100KV motor on 3 cells I’d look at 10x6 to 10x8 prop.
alofthobbies.com
May I ask what is your experience with electric gliders? This might help us answer some of your question. Like what are you looking to learn from the manual.
All the best,
Konrad
Chamomile - 1.7m Electric Glider by PILOT
Introducing the Chamomile produced by Japanese manufacturer PILOT. The Chamomile is a 1.7 meter electric glider with a fully sheeted built up wing construction and a stiff yet light fuselage. This makes the Chamomile a middleweight electric glider that is tougher than the typical film over balsa...
The KST X0-8 is almost a perfect servo for this model. If looking for a more economical option these servo have worked great for me in similar applications. They are fantastic when driven at 6V. I’d look for an ESC with a 6V switching BEC. Some of the Castle Creation ESC have these.
KS HD47MG Servo - 1.2Kg (16.66 oz in), .10/sec - High Voltage
High voltage (4.8 to 7.4V) digital servo with a coreless motor and tiny weight with reliable metal gears and good specs makes this a very nice servo that could sell for a lot higher price at some other store.
alofthobbies.com
JX PDI-0902MG Servo - 2.6 Kg (36.11 oz in), .07 sec - High Voltage
Digital control, high torque and a metal gear train make this servo an attractive choice but the thin profile (8mm) is really where it shines. A great servo for lighter gliders, thermal ships, and entry level DLG's at a great price.
alofthobbies.com
If using an 1100KV motor on 3 cells I’d look at 10x6 to 10x8 prop.
Aeronaut Cam Carbon Z 10"X6" (25.5x15 cm)
High performance Aeronaut blades are CAD designed, reinforced with carbon fiber, they have tremendous strength and efficiency.
alofthobbies.com
May I ask what is your experience with electric gliders? This might help us answer some of your question. Like what are you looking to learn from the manual.
All the best,
Konrad
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ahdofu
New User
Hello Konrad,
Thanks for the reply and the detailed equipment list. Nowadays I primarily fly glow powered RC planes and wanted to mix things up by trying an electric glider. The sales page shows some servos and motors but what I could not tell were the requirements for the aileron/flap servos versus the v-tail's. On the sales page the listed servos are the digital type whereas I am old school and prefer the analog type. The page also does not mention the prop options and finally if there are different power options available, I'd like to know what they are. Anyway I figured the manual would provide the specs for all.
Many years ago I had an unpowered two-channel glider. My primary issue with that plane was minimal control. I also did not like its landing phase. It took a while before the thing landed and it became a challenge given the small size of my flying field. Obviously could force it to land but sometimes the horizontal stabilizer would get dinged at higher landing speeds. Anyway I always thought that if I wanted to try gliders again, they would have alierons, will have a v-tail to minimize landing related tail scrapes and will have flaps so that I can use the crow braking function. Anyway keeping the overall size of the model in mind, I thought Chamomile might be it. If you know of a better model, I'd be interested to know what that is.
Regarding aileron roll, do your glider models react too slow to the aileron alone input and that is why you you prefer to have flaps on two servos?
Thanks,
Matt
Thanks for the reply and the detailed equipment list. Nowadays I primarily fly glow powered RC planes and wanted to mix things up by trying an electric glider. The sales page shows some servos and motors but what I could not tell were the requirements for the aileron/flap servos versus the v-tail's. On the sales page the listed servos are the digital type whereas I am old school and prefer the analog type. The page also does not mention the prop options and finally if there are different power options available, I'd like to know what they are. Anyway I figured the manual would provide the specs for all.
Many years ago I had an unpowered two-channel glider. My primary issue with that plane was minimal control. I also did not like its landing phase. It took a while before the thing landed and it became a challenge given the small size of my flying field. Obviously could force it to land but sometimes the horizontal stabilizer would get dinged at higher landing speeds. Anyway I always thought that if I wanted to try gliders again, they would have alierons, will have a v-tail to minimize landing related tail scrapes and will have flaps so that I can use the crow braking function. Anyway keeping the overall size of the model in mind, I thought Chamomile might be it. If you know of a better model, I'd be interested to know what that is.
Regarding aileron roll, do your glider models react too slow to the aileron alone input and that is why you you prefer to have flaps on two servos?
Thanks,
Matt
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Konrad
Very Strong User
Good questions.
Today all the good micro and sub micro servos are digital. These have the best power to weight ratio. It is safe to use digital servos at lower refresh rates typical of the old analog set up. The reverse is not true. $10 micro servos are a killer great deal! Yes, the battery and or BEC needs to be up to the task. Please don't use a 2 amp linear BEC with 3 cells and more than 2 servos. You would be risking RX brown outs.
I don't know this but I assume that as the sales page list rudder and elevator control and the need for 5 servos that each flipper in the back has its own servo.
One of the beauties of electric power is that it is so flexible. Unlike the glow engines of old, an electric motor has a very flat efficiency curve. This means that it can be set up for a wide variety of options and still perform well. The sales page recommends a 300 watt set up. I'd love that kind of power for very nice vertical climbs. But we really don't need that much power.
I fear the manual won't help too much in offering options.
Most of the gliders Aloft Carries are not like those of old. With even 200 watts of power I don't think you would call this glider under powered. I'm assuming you have a computer radio. If so the use of reflexed ailerons and flaps will allow you to drop the glider on a dime. None of this flying in ground effect for 3 counties! Even if you don't have the abilities to push up the ailerons as spoilers the flap will slow down the ship and give you good control of the landing zone.
I like V-tails as the stabilizer tips are usually kept out of the weeds making for less chance of damage should one land in the tall grass.
The roll rate with just the ailerons will be more than fast enough. Even in a basic trim this glider will make pylon turns that will snap your neck. I like to mix in flaps as ailerons to lower the drag of using the ailerons. That is 4 surfaces moving a little offer less drag that 2 surfaces moving a lot.
All the best,
Konrad
Today all the good micro and sub micro servos are digital. These have the best power to weight ratio. It is safe to use digital servos at lower refresh rates typical of the old analog set up. The reverse is not true. $10 micro servos are a killer great deal! Yes, the battery and or BEC needs to be up to the task. Please don't use a 2 amp linear BEC with 3 cells and more than 2 servos. You would be risking RX brown outs.
I don't know this but I assume that as the sales page list rudder and elevator control and the need for 5 servos that each flipper in the back has its own servo.
One of the beauties of electric power is that it is so flexible. Unlike the glow engines of old, an electric motor has a very flat efficiency curve. This means that it can be set up for a wide variety of options and still perform well. The sales page recommends a 300 watt set up. I'd love that kind of power for very nice vertical climbs. But we really don't need that much power.
I fear the manual won't help too much in offering options.
Most of the gliders Aloft Carries are not like those of old. With even 200 watts of power I don't think you would call this glider under powered. I'm assuming you have a computer radio. If so the use of reflexed ailerons and flaps will allow you to drop the glider on a dime. None of this flying in ground effect for 3 counties! Even if you don't have the abilities to push up the ailerons as spoilers the flap will slow down the ship and give you good control of the landing zone.
I like V-tails as the stabilizer tips are usually kept out of the weeds making for less chance of damage should one land in the tall grass.
The roll rate with just the ailerons will be more than fast enough. Even in a basic trim this glider will make pylon turns that will snap your neck. I like to mix in flaps as ailerons to lower the drag of using the ailerons. That is 4 surfaces moving a little offer less drag that 2 surfaces moving a lot.
All the best,
Konrad
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Konrad
Very Strong User
For about the same amount of money I'd look at these from Top Model.
These are usually just a step down in build quality from Pilot Models. I mean just ever so slightly less quality.
With gliders size does matter!
I like the Indian V as it has a "D" tube wing. I find they are easier to repair and that the airfoil performs better.
The Avia is great in that she is larger at 2.5m. But I don't like carbon tube spars and the distorted airfoil leading edge from the film sag.
Both are set up for full crow and trailing edge articulation and flap to aileron mix. Of the two I think the Avia might perform better for a novice glider driver.
alofthobbies.com
alofthobbies.com
All the best,
Konrad
These are usually just a step down in build quality from Pilot Models. I mean just ever so slightly less quality.
With gliders size does matter!
I like the Indian V as it has a "D" tube wing. I find they are easier to repair and that the airfoil performs better.
The Avia is great in that she is larger at 2.5m. But I don't like carbon tube spars and the distorted airfoil leading edge from the film sag.
Both are set up for full crow and trailing edge articulation and flap to aileron mix. Of the two I think the Avia might perform better for a novice glider driver.
TopModel Indian V
Upon opening the box that contained the Indian, I was once again pleasantly surprised to see TopModels very good craftsmanship and build quality. All of the parts are individually wrapped or bagged; airframe parts, screws, control linkages to the firewall
alofthobbies.com
TopModel Avia 2.5 Meter
Another great performer from TopModel. Features a large 2.5 meter built up wing span, MH32mod airfoil and flaps so you can land her in tight spaces.
All the best,
Konrad
ahdofu
New User
Hi Konrad,
Thanks for the follow up responses. Previously I had looked at the two Top models that you've noted. I liked Avia given that fact that it had a lower wing loading but at 2.5 meters it was too large. At 2 meters Indian was a better option but when I checked its manual, it looked as if the flap servo stayed in the fuselage which meant that the flap linkage had to be engaged every time the wing was bolted on. I find attaching a clevis very annoying especially if it needs to occur every time that I am at the field. As I write this, I realized this was another reason as to why I was looking for the manual for Chamomile as I did not know whether the flap servo stayed on the wing or not.
Matt
Thanks for the follow up responses. Previously I had looked at the two Top models that you've noted. I liked Avia given that fact that it had a lower wing loading but at 2.5 meters it was too large. At 2 meters Indian was a better option but when I checked its manual, it looked as if the flap servo stayed in the fuselage which meant that the flap linkage had to be engaged every time the wing was bolted on. I find attaching a clevis very annoying especially if it needs to occur every time that I am at the field. As I write this, I realized this was another reason as to why I was looking for the manual for Chamomile as I did not know whether the flap servo stayed on the wing or not.
Matt
Konrad
Very Strong User
It looks like the Chamomile also has a fuse mounted flap servo. Can't say as I like the "L" linkage. but as the push rod in held captive by the fuselage it should work fine.
A viable option to the clevis might be snap on ball clevices. I wouldn't want to use these for primary flight controls*, but for flaps should they pop off in flight I don't think you would loose the airframe.
www.dubro.com
*I have and still do. So far no issues but it still concerns me.
Why the sub 2 meter limit? The outer panels can be made removable with some plug in hardware.
The classic heli ball links are also good and easy to remove and install with these pliers.
alofthobbies.com
I also like the brass pin of the MP Jet clevis. Do keep a set in your flight box should (when) you drop/ loose the pin.
I don't know how much re-engineering you are willing to do, to a $300 ARF. But as the wing can take aileron servos, it should be easy enough to add flap servos to the wings.
A viable option to the clevis might be snap on ball clevices. I wouldn't want to use these for primary flight controls*, but for flaps should they pop off in flight I don't think you would loose the airframe.
DU-BRO RC Ball Links | Precision Control Link Hardware
Shop DU-BRO RC Ball Links for smooth, slop-free control linkage. Ideal for RC airplanes, helis & cars. Durable, high-precision hardware trusted worldwide.
www.dubro.com
*I have and still do. So far no issues but it still concerns me.
Why the sub 2 meter limit? The outer panels can be made removable with some plug in hardware.
The classic heli ball links are also good and easy to remove and install with these pliers.
Ball Link Pliers
We found these especially useful for popping in and out the ball link control horn connections on V-tail slope gliders. You may find these useful as well for your own, "can't quite do it with needle nose" ball links.The pliers are of a mediocre quality but with patients, they do the job just...
alofthobbies.com
I also like the brass pin of the MP Jet clevis. Do keep a set in your flight box should (when) you drop/ loose the pin.
I don't know how much re-engineering you are willing to do, to a $300 ARF. But as the wing can take aileron servos, it should be easy enough to add flap servos to the wings.
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Konrad
Very Strong User
These have proven to be great fun! And should meet all your constraints.
forum.alofthobbies.com
alofthobbies.com
Cassiopeia Sera-DX and Sera-Sailing
A new line of gliders that Aloft is bringing in from Japan. I saw these on the floor and when I started talking to Wayne, the next thing I knew, we were picking out servos and talking about the build!
forum.alofthobbies.com
SERA - DS-X 1.5m by Cassiopeia
Introducing the SERA DS-X produced by Japanese manufacturer Cassiopeia. The SERA DS-X like the SERA Sailing is a very light, well constructed, full house, sailplane that flies as well as it looks! We're not kidding, this 60" ship tracks like it's on rails. The similarities between DS-X, as I...
ahdofu
New User
The Cassiopeia is certainly another option. For a glider I prefer lower wing loadings hence the preference for Chamomile or the two Top models. I had not noticed Chamomile's flap connection before but then as you've noted the fuselage should keep it in place but I still find it unsatisfactory. At times I use the ball links on my glow throttle linkages but they do wear out. The MP jet clevis looks like a viable option. Switching to two servos instead of one for Indian is certainly an option but since the wing it already covered, it means removing and reapplication of new covering. Keeping the plane size below 2 meters is merely a transportation & storage preference but not a hard limit.
Matt
Matt
Konrad
Very Strong User
What type of flying are you looking for?
In the old days of "Gas Bags" low wing loading was thought to be the dominate characteristic to look for. Later it was found that if in sink you were going to land regardless of wing loading. With this realization low drag became the dominate characteristic sought in gliders. With low drag you could move/cover ground searching for lift, while loosing little in the way of altitude. The MH 32 airfoil come from that way of thinking. It was developed as a pylon racing airfoil but works great on real soaring machines.
Most folks would find a 3 piece 3 meter wing easy enough to store and transport. I have a first gen Prius that while I can stuff a single piece 2 meter wing into the cab I prefer the 1 meter section of my 3 meter ships. I get the best of both worlds with 1 meter section wings. As far as wear most connectors wear and should be replace at the end of each season's flying. Now gliders even electric glider don't have near the vibration issue we have with glow. Servo, Rxs', batteries and connectors all last an order of magnitude longer in electric planes and electric gliders. Ok, I ran my glow engine at 30K+ rpm so your mileage may vary.
If you can swing it I think you will like the larger gliders even if they have a much higher wing loading. Something else to look into is cubic wing loading. A much better predictor of airframe performance than the classic wing loading.
www.sefsd.org
In the old days of "Gas Bags" low wing loading was thought to be the dominate characteristic to look for. Later it was found that if in sink you were going to land regardless of wing loading. With this realization low drag became the dominate characteristic sought in gliders. With low drag you could move/cover ground searching for lift, while loosing little in the way of altitude. The MH 32 airfoil come from that way of thinking. It was developed as a pylon racing airfoil but works great on real soaring machines.
Most folks would find a 3 piece 3 meter wing easy enough to store and transport. I have a first gen Prius that while I can stuff a single piece 2 meter wing into the cab I prefer the 1 meter section of my 3 meter ships. I get the best of both worlds with 1 meter section wings. As far as wear most connectors wear and should be replace at the end of each season's flying. Now gliders even electric glider don't have near the vibration issue we have with glow. Servo, Rxs', batteries and connectors all last an order of magnitude longer in electric planes and electric gliders. Ok, I ran my glow engine at 30K+ rpm so your mileage may vary.
If you can swing it I think you will like the larger gliders even if they have a much higher wing loading. Something else to look into is cubic wing loading. A much better predictor of airframe performance than the classic wing loading.
Wing Cube Loading (WCL) – SEFSD
www.sefsd.org
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ahdofu
New User
For the glider I'm looking for a floater hence the lower wing loading. I am not a die hard RC flyer by any means. Once in a while I go to the field and spend 3-4 hrs there so for me RC flying is a mere recreation type of an activity. I have nothing against bigger gliders. Smaller planes tend to work better in my situation. They just take less space either in storage or in transportation.
Matt
Matt
Konrad
Very Strong User
I fear that there are a lot of things conspiring against the smaller glider when it comes to floaters. I'd hate to see you spend $300 plus only to find you aren't happy with the higher speeds.
I hear that you want control power and light slow landing speeds. I assume you don't want that we had years ago with the 2 channel Gentle Lady. I find that to get both a good flat land floater and powerful controls one needs to go up in size.
I love the 1.5 meter class for being able to really rip things up. But to have a floated with any hope of control power I think you are going to need a bit more span. A 2 to 2.5 meter in an E-Glider, with break down wings is what I think you are looking for.
The Sera ships might break the rules. They are fun. But I've never flown them from the flat lands. They are great light lift slope ships
Maybe someone will come is with another option. Have you looked at some DLG gliders?
All the best,
Konrad
I hear that you want control power and light slow landing speeds. I assume you don't want that we had years ago with the 2 channel Gentle Lady. I find that to get both a good flat land floater and powerful controls one needs to go up in size.
I love the 1.5 meter class for being able to really rip things up. But to have a floated with any hope of control power I think you are going to need a bit more span. A 2 to 2.5 meter in an E-Glider, with break down wings is what I think you are looking for.
The Sera ships might break the rules. They are fun. But I've never flown them from the flat lands. They are great light lift slope ships
Maybe someone will come is with another option. Have you looked at some DLG gliders?
All the best,
Konrad
ahdofu
New User
It is funny you mention gentle lady. I actually put one together from the kit many years ago just for the fun of it. Having finished, it I sold it. Anyway going back to the present case a DLG glider really needs a wide open space and good arms - both of which I do not posses. Anyway I am still looking around but based on your feedback I see that there are other options. Thanks for taking the time to write back.
Matt
Matt
On electrifying a dlg thought this might be worth a look
alofthobbies.com
I looked one of these kits in Singapore. I think with more modern (smaller) servos one could make the V tail full function and if you selected gear right you could outfit the whole model for little more than the price of the Chamomile kit.
Could be a good starting kit and not large investment.
Just a thought,
Hank
Marjoram 2 - 1.1m Electric Glider by PILOT
Introducing the Marjoram 2 produced by Japanese manufacturer PILOT. The Marjoram 2 is a 1.7 meter electric glider with a fully sheeted built up wing construction and a stiff yet light fuselage. This makes the Marjoram 2 a middleweight electric glider that is tougher than the typical film over...
I looked one of these kits in Singapore. I think with more modern (smaller) servos one could make the V tail full function and if you selected gear right you could outfit the whole model for little more than the price of the Chamomile kit.
Could be a good starting kit and not large investment.
Just a thought,
Hank
ahdofu
New User
Gentle Lady was just a winter recreation activity. The 2-channel glider that that I flew was called Explorer (I think). From there I moved onto glow. Now I just have three planes: 4-star 60 with OS 90II Surpass, Yak with YS110 & a small electric foamie.
Marjoram 2 is on the small side, as a glider, for my taste. It also lacks flaps. Not that it needs it but given my my small landing field, I need more control during the landing phase.
Marjoram 2 is on the small side, as a glider, for my taste. It also lacks flaps. Not that it needs it but given my my small landing field, I need more control during the landing phase.
Konrad
Very Strong User
Ah, the Thunder Tiger Explorer. The same class as the GL but as an ARF.
Those aren't small glow ships. I thought you might be limited to 4cc glow engines.
When looking for your glider don't forget that spoilerons are very effective as lift control, dump devices. With both ailerons going up one often doesn't need the flap. This makes for a simpler model. The down side is that one needs to add more elevator compensation in the radio's programing.
What do you have as a foamie? More to the point what do you have in the way of a battery management system (charger and discharger)?
All the best,
Konrad
Those aren't small glow ships. I thought you might be limited to 4cc glow engines.
When looking for your glider don't forget that spoilerons are very effective as lift control, dump devices. With both ailerons going up one often doesn't need the flap. This makes for a simpler model. The down side is that one needs to add more elevator compensation in the radio's programing.
What do you have as a foamie? More to the point what do you have in the way of a battery management system (charger and discharger)?
All the best,
Konrad
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ahdofu
New User
You're certainly familiar with the various airplane models. I did not even recall who had manufactured the Explorer.
My glow planes are mid-sized ~ wing span of 70 in. The foamie is really an EPP park flyer. I don't recall the name but it looks like a Stick with a Hacker A20-20L motor. I have not flown it for a couple of years given the restriction at the county park. For batteries I have three chargers: FMA Einstein, Accu-cycle Elite & Hitec X2. I use the first two with the glow plane RX batteries and my TX battery. The last one is for the Li-Po battery of the park flyer but again I have not used that one in a while.
I am not sold on the benefits of spoilerons. Perhaps gliders are a different story. During landing phase I need the functionality of the ailerons but they become less effective when operating in an spoileron configuration. Ideally I would rather have flaps but have them act as spoilers (i.e move up). This makes the airplane quite draggy and with the reduction in lift the plane becomes quite stable during the landing phase. Air braking is the primary reason as to why I use 4-stroke glow engines. At idle the propeller acts like an air brake and it becomes relatively easy to land the plane on a short airstrip.
My glow planes are mid-sized ~ wing span of 70 in. The foamie is really an EPP park flyer. I don't recall the name but it looks like a Stick with a Hacker A20-20L motor. I have not flown it for a couple of years given the restriction at the county park. For batteries I have three chargers: FMA Einstein, Accu-cycle Elite & Hitec X2. I use the first two with the glow plane RX batteries and my TX battery. The last one is for the Li-Po battery of the park flyer but again I have not used that one in a while.
I am not sold on the benefits of spoilerons. Perhaps gliders are a different story. During landing phase I need the functionality of the ailerons but they become less effective when operating in an spoileron configuration. Ideally I would rather have flaps but have them act as spoilers (i.e move up). This makes the airplane quite draggy and with the reduction in lift the plane becomes quite stable during the landing phase. Air braking is the primary reason as to why I use 4-stroke glow engines. At idle the propeller acts like an air brake and it becomes relatively easy to land the plane on a short airstrip.
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Konrad
Very Strong User
Using the large prop on a glider as an airbrake is also very effective. Please remember this when setting the brake and power point on your glider ESC.
Don't rig the inboard flaps as spoilerons! This will induce the wing to tip stall as you slow down.
Spoilerons should not cause too much loss of directional control if thes are programed properly. Most glider programs will allow a reverse differential movement of the aileron input when in spoiler mode. This as both the drag and lift profile are aidding in the directional control.
Would you like to stay with the same size battery you currently use with the Hacker A20?
Don't rig the inboard flaps as spoilerons! This will induce the wing to tip stall as you slow down.
Spoilerons should not cause too much loss of directional control if thes are programed properly. Most glider programs will allow a reverse differential movement of the aileron input when in spoiler mode. This as both the drag and lift profile are aidding in the directional control.
Would you like to stay with the same size battery you currently use with the Hacker A20?
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Konrad
Very Strong User
I see that there has been some editing of a post to correct a link.
I want to be clear that what I was trying to show is that there are ECS that have High Voltage SBEC. I tried to linked to a way oversized Talon 65 as an example of such an ESC. Not that one would need or want such a large ESC for this class of glider. The lower rated Talons are a fixed voltage SBEC.
I'd have liked to link the the ESC Aloft carries, the Power Up as these have HV-SBEC. Unfortunately the brake function has proven to not be very reliable (a programing issue). The brake function is a critical need option with gliders.
alofthobbies.com
I want to be clear that what I was trying to show is that there are ECS that have High Voltage SBEC. I tried to linked to a way oversized Talon 65 as an example of such an ESC. Not that one would need or want such a large ESC for this class of glider. The lower rated Talons are a fixed voltage SBEC.
I'd have liked to link the the ESC Aloft carries, the Power Up as these have HV-SBEC. Unfortunately the brake function has proven to not be very reliable (a programing issue). The brake function is a critical need option with gliders.
PowerUp ESC 30 Amp
PowerUp's line of ESC's provide solid motor control performance. The design incorporates an ARM 32 bit processor which results in a very smooth linear throttle response. Automated startup algorithms combined with adaptive motor timing help to prevent motor cogging and synchronization issues that...
alofthobbies.com
