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Alpha 2.0M build "log" (mostly questions)

We are looking into a newer epoxy for these bonds. Some other producers have had good luck with. Hopefully we can get TJI to give it a try, at that point, should you crash, the seams will not split like most planes, the stuff really works. (Could be an argument that split seams are easier to fix then smashed skins..)
 
We are looking into a newer epoxy for these bonds. Some other producers have had good luck with. Hopefully we can get TJI to give it a try, at that point, should you crash, the seams will not split like most planes, the stuff really works. (Could be an argument that split seams are easier to fix then smashed skins..)
There may be a lot of truth to that.

But I'd like to see the seams split a lot closer to the point that the skins smash. Right now the ultimate yield of most of these molded structures is defined by the bond strength and this a long way away from the limits of the parent material (epoxy laminate).
Being as we can't get many directional fibers into the bonding matrix it really is imperative that the adhesive be the best, very high bond strength yet not too brittle!

I'm starting to see some urethane compounds that show a lot of promise. I've never worked with them so I don't know what they might be like to work with. But really can they be much worse that epoxy with its associated health risks
 
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James if I am allowed to share I will. I'm currently waiting for a response with more details and I should know if it is something I can share or not.

It is an epoxy that was designed for use in megabuck sailboats for offshore racing. It is specifically designed to bond aluminum to carbon. I suspect there are other brands with similar products available. I do not recall that this had any fibers in it and heard no comments of the guys that had used it complaining of a brittle joint. They only commented that it does not let go, and when a plane takes damage, it no longer has issues at the joints, but instead the skins will shatter in a large energy impact. Think puzzle pieces.
 
Thanks Wayne - OK got it.

I think I am going to look into this in some detail.

The inclusion of fibre for me - if it can be done - would not be for strength, maybe for a bit of impact resistance, but not much.
Nope, I'm interested in fibre for what it does for the topographical adhesion. Those little strands have a habit of migrating (Read capillary effect) - or at least the ends of them, into any microscopic nook and cranny available and I find that idea very attractive.

Look at it: Lots of microscopic pillars in every direction penetrating every nano gap or crack, strengthened by a resin (not necessarily epoxy) matrix?

Crikey, only a true chemical bond would (theoretically) be superior - as long as the matrix was in itself strong enough.

I'll let you know how I get on but right now here is where I'm looking:

https://en.letbond.com.tw/product/structural

Cheers,

Doc.
 
Here you go:
We use a structural adhesive called Techniglue 421. There are many other structural adhesives on the market, 3M do some, my work uses ProSet ADV 175 and 176. Using a proper structural adhesive where you need a structural join like the leading edge, is imperative and absolutely necessary.

I don't think you will find the Techniglue 421 outside of NZ, but pretty sure you will be able to get the ProSet ADV 175 or something similar to it. It comes in different colors and cure times. These are considered a structural epoxy and are high performance pre-thickened, two-part epoxy adhesives for secondary bonding of laminated composites, steel, aluminum, cast iron, concrete, stone, and most wood species. The mixture fills gaps and will not sag on vertical surfaces. The material wets out the substrate, making priming or pre-wetting unnecessary on most surfaces, while ensuring a good bond. This product cures at room temperature.

The price is not horrible and seems to be available from several composite shops. It has an 18 month shelf life and a pretty simple 2:1 volume ratio. Most places seem to stock it in the cartridge form. Think a single cartridge would do a fair amount of models.
 
All the big boys; AirBus, Boeing, Bombardier, Embraer, Fokker and their sub contractors!

All kidding aside this bonding of the wing structure is an issue. Every failed wing I see shows the bond lines fail prior to the parent material. Even the NZ DS ships show this. But looking at their failure modes I can see that the bond withstood a lot more force before letting go than the typical epoxy Cab-O-Sil mixture. Yes, even these structural adhesives still fail before the main carbon epoxy matrix. But the failure points are much closer to each other.

I'd gladly pay an extra 5% for a ship built with structural adhesives. The leading edge of most of my RCRCM, TJIRC, Aeroic, Sanda and FVK models have all shown delamination just from shipping and handling. I've had to end many a flight session after cutting down a weed or ice plant. If the LE joint had held there would have been a lot less damage to the parent material as the top and bottom skins would have supported each other. With some high tech marketing this use of structural adhesives could be used as a sales point. Showing the added structural performance and justifying the added cost.
 
TJI is working up some prices for me. They were not sure they wanted to use it as it does cost more and they don't have a lot of profit margin in their planes. I told them I would make it easy for them, they can charge me more. I will admit that we have not had many issues with the TJI line of planes, but when you look at something like the Mini Q, I think the spar problem will vanish with the use of the correct bonding adhesive.

What I have been told by the NZ guys is when they crash a normal glider, the joints all pop, plus some skin damage. Same thing we all see. But a plane that has been seamed with the Techniglue 421 when crashed literally turns the skins into a puzzle as all of the joints hold fast.

Some may prefer to wreck a plane with the junky glue joints as they help preserve the skins, where the structural adhesives will transmit all of the forces into the skins doing a lot more damage. But please keep in mind we are talking about model ending crashes here. DS planes hitting the ground at speeds over 100 mph. The big advantage will be the slightly rough landing that opens up a joint and ends your flying day. Or maybe a mid air event where the plane is still bale to land under control as the wing didn't turn into paper.

Here is the prototype F40 that was crashed at speed into a mountain, as I recall it clipped a wingtip at a high rate of speed and that turned it fully into the mountainside for an instant stop. This is one massive delimitation of all bonding joints. Note in some cases the spar is missing from both the top and the bottom skins, the top skins for the flap is missing, etc.
IMG_5920 (1).jpeg

IMG_5921 (1).jpeg


This is a well built plane, the manufacturer does not have a history of bonding failures. I don't expect any plane to survive the energy loads this plane witnessed, it was just an example I had sitting around that shows how these joints do fail in the real world.

I was watching the sail boat race around the world, Vendee Cup. It was interesting to see how the composite boats were failing under the HEAVY loads they see. They did not have bonding failures, they had skin failures. This is not what we would have seen 10 or 20 years ago, it was always bonding failures back then, but these new adhesives are so strong now they move the failure point to the actual laminations. (Much like our gliders, these sailboats are trying to reduce weight and maximize strength. I was amazed to see how much they try to reduce weight on these boats.) You can see some of the cracks in this photo of the Hugo Boss boat this year:
VG_Hugo_Boss_Bow_Damage_1_23112020.jpg
 
I'm sure there is a narrow window where popping the seam might be best. But generally I find that a failed seam causes more damage than it prevents.

I like some of what I see in this photo. Well, as much as one can enjoy seeing damaged equipment.

failed D40 wing.jpg
 
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OK, This is a stick up! (Sorry)

The case for Industrial Adhesives ("IA" from now - I'm a lazy typist!) is clear and is a really good idea:

Ergo: Aeroic and Aeroic Europe will be using them very soon - or as soon as I can sort out the wheat from the chaff as to which we will use. As Wayne had indicated, there may be a small (I hope) cost penalty but I'm guessing nothing that would involve confrontation or duelling with SWMBO.

Sometimes a PhD in Materials Science can be useful, and my research is ongoing. I'm talking to a local firm who are looking pretty good (on paper) and also to 3M, but no really comparative information from them yet. As I have mentioned, I'd prefer a fibre-filled acrylic, urethane or epoxy low temp cure mix for technical reasons as the indications are that it really can't get better than that.

Big problem is really that its really hard to test the differences without investing in expensive equipment, but in any case, even if we only go on the publicly punished specs, the use of IA HAS to be better than Cabosil/epoxy.

I am feeling a bit stupid actually as I should know this better than anyone, because of my involvement with UAV design in which the use of IA for most non-green joints is completely standard. Thats a line of enquiry I'm pursuing too as the applications are identical and the research is already done.

But I'm still very curious - does anybody know of even one model manufacturing company (Thanks Konrad) that is using IA?
This should be a feature of the model construction, unless I'm missing something - or unless it has always been the case for the more expensive models, and nobody knew??

Personally - and I now think this is really surprising - I have never heard of IA being used, so this modest plea from Aloft might be breaking new ground, possibly another milestone in the history of the all-moulded model?

In any case I think it might take quite a difference.

Cheers,

Doc.
 
This might be another opportunity for Aeroic to be a leader, with regards to lateral thinking OEMs.

I know I as a customer would welcome leading edges that perform much like the rest of the structure. You can see in many of my other posts that this delamination of the LE has been the bane of my existence.

So some expenditure of resource (my customer dollars) would greatly be appreciated for a more robust airframe!
 
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This might be another opportunity for Aeroic to be a leader in with regards to lateral thinking OEMs.

I know I as a customer would welcome leading edges that perform much like the rest of the structure. You can see in many of my other posts that this delamination of the LE has been the bane of my existence.

So some expenditure of resource (my customer dollars) would greatly be appreciated for a more robust airframe!
It is going to happen and soon.

Doc.
 
I notice on the other wing had a bit more glue on it.

PXL_20210330_022018072.jpg


Notches cut for horns.
PXL_20210330_021843538.jpg


On the wing side there is the trailing edge wood that looks to be covered with glass. I am assuming I have to cut a slot in this like I did for the horns on the other side, for the pushrods to run in, correct?

PXL_20210330_022106808.jpg
 
Yes, needing to punch a hole through the wing trailing edge shear web to pass the push rod.

If using the control horns that came in the kit, I'd open up your slot a bit more to allow more of the epoxy Cab-O-Sil mixture to pass the surface shear web. You are trying to bond the control horn to the top and bottom skins. The shear web will offer very little bond area and strength for the control horn.

What you see as more glue, I see as excess material used to make the wipers.
 
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The carbon rods don’t belong with this kit, samething happen to me. I had to sand a decent amount on the elevator to prevent any rubbing. I maiden my 2.0 last weekend with 30mph winds. I thought it would be a slowish flyer..... i was wrong, the plane rips and turns pretty tight with a little rudder action. CG at 81mm 55oz all weighted up.
Where is that location? That looks like an awesome site!
 
I have a question about the rudder horn installation. The first picture shows about where it will lie, and the second shows that it will almost fully fit inside the skins. I don't think the aftmost section will however. So the question is, do I try to drill out the slot via the hinge opening, and slide it in...that sort of seems impossible. Or do I cut a slot on the side and fit it in there? Also, how deep into the rudder should it sit, as far in as it will go, or?

1619410961554.png
1619411223595.png
 
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