Aeroic now/2022

[Konrad]

I'm sure RGMCN is nobody’s first choice of OEM. But I suspect that there is limited manufacturing capacity elsewhere. So one is most likely forced to use Zhou. But one must keep a close eye on how the contract is written and keep an ever vigilant eye on the quality of the output.

I've learned my leason! Never again!

 

[Doc J]

Well Doc, that "tranguloid" fuse goes back a lot further than your Alpenbrise. The Freestylers have this cross section and have had for a decade or two.

But yes I see your wing planform in the design. Having major manufacturing issues with all 5 of models I’ve received from this manufacturer*. I can tell you this project (or any others) from this OEM are still born.

I wonder what kind of support I would get for the delaminating LE, gloss bonding area on the control horns, soft control horn wire, dragging control snakes, voids in the lay up and puddling resin in the lay up from Zhou? Then there is the poor performance of the “Kevlar “ hinges. I know none! As he is hiding behind an ocean and a culture that does not respect individual property or intellectual property.

*You have been very good with the after sales support of the Aeroic brand products from this OEM. But you and I should not have had to deal with the many basic composite manufacturing errors that I as a typical modeler found.

Your contract issue aside**, as the end customer Zhou, RGMCN are a do NOT purchase OEM. I had, who I think is the ghost designer get all up set with me for bringing these qualities and safety concerns up when I asked who the OEM was for his new line of models.

**This should be a warning to anyone working with Zhou. I think he on his third "British" designer. Does he appear to be a good partner because he speaks english? With his track record I wouldn't want to be associated with him in a business.

Thanks for the encouragement, Konrad. Actually my comments about the 'Trianguloid ' fuselage was that it had been incorportaed (as on my Alpenbrise) rather than it was my invention. As I remember the Sagitta had a similar fuselage cross section?

Cheers,

Doc.

 

[Doc J]

I have to admit, I was also surprised to see a couple of the new planes coming from RGMCN. The designer has had good luck with others, sad to see the change, but maybe opens other doors for other designers.

Hope so, 2.

Doc.

 

[Doc J]

Unfortunately it has been pointed out to me by a growing number of people that in fact there are a lot of new models coming from the Far East which seem to have 'amalgamated' certain of my design developments. I thought it was just this 'hybrid'.

But anyway, this is a bit of a downbeat thread here, which we probably don't need in these covid-troubled days. I think I'm righteously a bit troubled but there is no need to pass my woes on to you guys.

So, after a bit of thought and advice, I'm taking this two ways:

1. Obviously the designer does not have the skills to do a good orginal design, or they need not copy mine or use my parts. This will tell in the end.
2. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. i.e. I should feel good as the originating intelligence.

I'll sign off from this matter now, but cheers and thanks for the support.

Doc.

 

[Wayne]

But one must keep a close eye on how the contract is written and keep an ever vigilant eye on the quality of the output.

Haha - That is funny!

No really it is funny. Written contract!! You crack me up.

 

[ORRich]

FWIW - a couple of decades ago I was surprised to see a wonderful new scale glider for sale - it was somewhere in the $200 range and perhaps a 2.5m ship - I pounced on it only to find out that you get what you pay for - luckily they had a very reasonable return policy and immediately got my money back - there will always be those that will be fine with sub-par products (regardless of origin) but I feel the majority in this sport know that there are no shortcuts when it comes down to quality in production and design - and those are the customers I presume you will be seeking -

 

[Konrad]

Haha - That is funny!

No really it is funny. Written contract!! You crack me up.

In business, I can't do anything without a contract, or letter of intent. Without one, we hear of folks reneging on their promises to deliver. (How many times have you lost your good faith deposits for gliders that never materialized).

Also without a contract how would a vendor like Zhuo know what is an acceptable level of quality. Guys like him think shoveling crap out the door is the same thing as meeting customer expectation for volume and that there is no quality expectation. And then feel justified in claiming being wrong when they aren't paid for the crap they think was suitable and delivered on time.

Also doing business without a contract is a sure fire way to loose friends.

The Joker

 

[Doc J]

In business, I can't do anything without a contract, or letter of intent. Without one, we hear of folks reneging on their promises to deliver. (How many times have you lost your good faith deposits for gliders that never materialized).

Also without a contract how would a vendor like Zhuo know what is an acceptable level of quality. Guys like him think shoveling crap out the door is the same thing as meeting customer expectation for volume and that there is no quality expectation. And then feel justified in claiming being wrong when they aren't paid for the crap they think was suitable and delivered on time.

Also doing business without a contract is a sure fire way to loose friends.

The Joker

To illustrate the Chinese mentality on this subject, let me tell you what happened to me a few years ago in China. I had designed some sports equipment for a very famous North American fitness company and I was in Shanghai for a show to help my client to sell the stuff to western visitors and explain it, as I can speak both English and Manadrin Chinese. During the show I noticed that there was another outfit also selling similar stuff under the same brand name.
I knew it was not legal, but since it was pretty unusual to see someone so blatantly copying or using another's trade mark, I singled out the company boss whom I had met before under similar circumstances. He recognized me too, so curious, I invited him for a coffee (DONT drink Chinese coffee! Its hucking forrible) and after we'd sat down and reacquainted, I asked him how he could be so obvious in publicly using the name of a competitor, and not only that, he'd claimed that the stuff was designed by them too. Wow!

A well-dressed and handsome young guy of about 35, He sat back and looked steadily at me, then he said:

"Ok what can you do? If you ask me to take down the illegal trademarks then I will do it, but only if the organisers threaten to kick me out of the show, which they wont" he smiled, tapping his wallet pocket.

"If you try to sue me I will have disappeared, my company name and even my factory will be gone, and one week later I'll be in full production under a different name and in a different place."

"If you actually did manage to sue me personally, it would take years, and even if you were successful I'd never pay, I'll be long gone and it will have cost you a fortune to do the litigation."

"Remember who I sell to" He said with a big grin. "I sell to the West, to you guys, and you guys are fully aware that what I am selling has nothing to do with the designers or their trade marks. At best its a copy and at worst its a poor Chinese design - but as long as the price is right, you guys just dont care! Think about it, I don't sell in China, so if you didn't buy my fake products, I couldn't make the stuff anyway, so as long as you keep buying it, I'll keep making it."

Unfortunately its exactly there, that East meets West.

MY own problems.

1. A contract for smaller business is literally toilet paper. Its not enforceable, and only would be if the goods that are being made OEM were previously registered with the China copyright/IPR department before any production started. Added to that, the IPR department for each province is different and has different requirements. Registration takes 6 to 9 months for each product. Of course nobody tells you this, because few people do small scale OEM in China; its all ODM or large scale.

2. You think things are cheap in China? Going after this kind of thing legally will involve a retaining fee upfront of about 20,000 US$ with absolutely no guarantee of success. Each court appearance demands another fee, and also the legal preparation, so lets say if you want to go get your stuff back, you need about 35 to 40,000 US$ in your war chest to start with. And thats if you DID register the products.

3. Chinese law completely protects the smaller OEM, and with the big OEM violators we're talking big money anyway. So I have found other ways to prosecute my claim for my moulds. Zhou can tell any story he likes about me, and there have been some pretty good ones I can tell you, though more fool those that believe them. But he will not escape the results of these claims as they will come from his own government.

In a nutshell, I cant make him return my moulds, but I can make him wish he had.

So if you are going to do OEM business in China and your name is not VOLKSWAGEN AUDI or similar, then forget any contract.

Doc.

 

[Konrad]

One of the many costs of doing business in China.

Yes, we the consumer are responsible for the rush to the bottom.

 

[ORRich]

Dang this forum gets one thinking - and what I post below is more aligned with mass-produced consumer goods and not Doc's headaches in China that is another matter:

In Doc's post about the brash Chinese businessman laying the blame on the consumer: he does have a point - instead of 'buyer beware' it's 'company beware' - when you are Nike, Adidas, Puma, Louis Vuitton or Prada and sell handbags for $10,000+ or sports shirts made of nylon for $135 AND your products are 'easily' reproducible (but not identical) you are setting yourself up for the secondary knock off market - are the knockoffs illegal? sure - but the market really doesn't care because they're buying those purses for $350 and sports shirts for $20 - and LV and Prada's only recourse is to complain to their Western governments who can't do much against China anyway - either the Chinese government or the individual knock off makers - they can play legal Wack-amole if they want to.

One course of action that a small producer can do (and I've seen it done on YouTube) is to post videos of your product and why it's better than a knockoff - in one video (I wish I could find it) that I watched a few years ago, was about a small-company CEO demonstrating how he makes his leather messenger bags - he points out where the knockoffs cut corners on leather, stitching, buckles etc. He also highlights where his bags are made and the community his employees work in and how that brings $ to their families and communities. It was a well-made video explaining the value (peppered with a few very docile, but f*ck you, remarks to the counterfeiters -lol) he did it well -

Educating our customer is probably the best way to do it - luckily this industry we're part of is tight-knit and educating people on your value should not be a huge mountain to climb compared to mass-produced consumer goods - when demand for a glider knock-off wanes because of the mere fact that it's a knockoff then there won't be incentives to produce - of course there will always be those that will buy crap -aint nothing much you can do about it.

 

[Konrad]

- of course there will always be those that will buy crap -aint nothing much you can do about it.

That is why I hit RCRCM and RGMCN so hard in my build threads. Actually it is rather easy to show why they are junk, or second tier at best.

 

[Doc J]

Dang this forum gets one thinking - and what I post below is more aligned with mass-produced consumer goods and not Doc's headaches in China that is another matter:

In Doc's post about the brash Chinese businessman laying the blame on the consumer: he does have a point - instead of 'buyer beware' it's 'company beware' - when you are Nike, Adidas, Puma, Louis Vuitton or Prada and sell handbags for $10,000+ or sports shirts made of nylon for $135 AND your products are 'easily' reproducible (but not identical) you are setting yourself up for the secondary knock off market - are the knockoffs illegal? sure - but the market really doesn't care because they're buying those purses for $350 and sports shirts for $20 - and LV and Prada's only recourse is to complain to their Western governments who can't do much against China anyway - either the Chinese government or the individual knock off makers - they can play legal Wack-amole if they want to.

One course of action that a small producer can do (and I've seen it done on YouTube) is to post videos of your product and why it's better than a knockoff - in one video (I wish I could find it) that I watched a few years ago, was about a small-company CEO demonstrating how he makes his leather messenger bags - he points out where the knockoffs cut corners on leather, stitching, buckles etc. He also highlights where his bags are made and the community his employees work in and how that brings $ to their families and communities. It was a well-made video explaining the value (peppered with a few very docile, but f*ck you, remarks to the counterfeiters -lol) he did it well -

Educating our customer is probably the best way to do it - luckily this industry we're part of is tight-knit and educating people on your value should not be a huge mountain to climb compared to mass-produced consumer goods - when demand for a glider knock-off wanes because of the mere fact that it's a knockoff then there won't be incentives to produce - of course there will always be those that will buy crap -aint nothing much you can do about it.

All good points OR.

What really gets me is that the super upmarket luxury good makers like Prada and LV etc used to make thier products locally in their own countries and employ skilled local workers, this boosting the local economy and providing good livings to their own countrymen. They'd pay them well and buy the best materials to make the products. So after all the costs were deducted - and you can imagine the advertising an sponsorship costs, they only made a gross profit of maybe $9,500 on each $10,000 handbag. Now these figures are not accurate, but the actual proportion of cost to profit is probably understated.

"Oh no! Only $9,500 PROFIT?!?! lets make them in China were we can make $9,950 profit! Lets forget the loyal, skilled, local workers and go to China!" they cried.

Then what happens? The local CHINESE workers soon find out that to make a knockoff copy, which to the unskilled eye is identical to the orginal is both cheap and easy, so they set up backsteet factories and do just that. Not only that, over time they get better and better at it until the fakes REALLY have to be microscopically, someties forensically examined to prove a knockoff.

So what do Gucci, Prada, LV and the likes do? They cry and moan to the Chinese government.

Serves them bloodywell right, I say.

Doc.

 

[Wayne]

What i love these days is you will see a Chinese company try very hard to make a first rate product. There are a number of great examples that come from China. And they ALL have to deal with other companies in China ripping them off. We recently were sent a couple of FREE battery chargers after we declined to order any, part of a large order. I thought, Oh, that was nice of them to send me some free chargers to check out. My thought was if they are any good I'll order some up for our store. well, it didn't take long to notice how similar they were to ISDT units. Funny thing is they did it so poorly.

 

[Doc J]

What i love these days is you will see a Chinese company try very hard to make a first rate product. There are a number of great examples that come from China. And they ALL have to deal with other companies in China ripping them off. We recently were sent a couple of FREE battery chargers after we declined to order any, part of a large order. I thought, Oh, that was nice of them to send me some free chargers to check out. My thought was if they are any good I'll order some up for our store. well, it didn't take long to notice how similar they were to ISDT units. Funny thing is they did it so poorly.

Yes I have seen that. Its a case of dog eat dog.

Doc.

 

[ORRich]

Yes I have seen that. Its a case of dog eat dog.

Doc.

Doc. You seem to know the Chinese culture pretty well. In the US we seem to culturally hold original design as a value and we protect it legally as well. Imitation is seen as sub par etc.

Does the Chinese culture hold imitation as a positive cultural value? Is it a sign of cleverness in reverse engineering and producing it cheaper that is positive value in that culture?

Or is it just people trying to make a buck?

 

[Doc J]

Doc. You seem to know the Chinese culture pretty well. In the US we seem to culturally hold original design as a value and we protect it legally as well. Imitation is seen as sub par etc.

Does the Chinese culture hold imitation as a positive cultural value? Is it a sign of cleverness in reverse engineering and producing it cheaper that is positive value in that culture?

Or is it just people trying to make a buck?

Hi Rich,
After being in Taiwan for 36 years I probably do know the culture well and during that time I have (according to Julia, my wife) visited China over 100 times and although the cultures and thinking are different, one thing remains the same: money is king.

The Chinese view of imitation depends what you are imitating. If its an original foreign design then the Chinese look down on that. This coveting of imported items can reach amazing levels. I have seen at least one person I know walk past a shop that sold Rolex watches and had a 20% discount sign, in order to visit the shop next door which also sold Rolex watches, but without discount. He bought the more expensive watch as it topped 100,000 NT$ (About 3,000US) and he could boast that he'd gone over the 100K threshold.

You will hear the Chinese "Wo mai jin-ko de" (我買進口) said with some pride very often. It means "I buy imported".

Reverse engineeering is frowned upon by the Chinese, and only western people buy the ripoffs. The funny but quite understandable thing is that the people who are making the ripoffs use the money they make to buy the real stuff. As an example of import-o-mania, Rolls Royce Beijing is the most successful car sales outlet in the world.

Odd world we live in.

Doc.

 

[Smoggie]

Any guess when the Spada will be available?

I almost got fooled into buying a Redshift from RGMCN, glad I stumbled on this thread to put me straight!

 

[Wayne]

Best guess would be 6 months minimum.

 

[Doc J]

Any guess when the Spada will be available?

I almost got fooled into buying a Redshift from RGMCN, glad I stumbled on this thread to put me straight!

Good man Smoggie! Wayne is right on the timing for the Spada - I wish it could be faster.

Cheers,

Doc.

 

[Smoggie]

Thanks guys, it's worth waiting for the real deal. Will there be a UK importer?