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4 meter scratch build - Glass schedule / reinforcement questions

thenated0g

Moderator
Over this next winter/summer i want to get a big 4 meter build going for the 2021 sunset event. While i have made a couple bagged fiberglass wings they have all been fairly short, 50 ish inches or so and i haven't really needed to worry too much reinforcement. This build is going to be two 80 inch wings. My goal is fun swooping back and forth on the front side, not anything DS or even close. I will be using probably the blue foam and vacuum bagging the wings. I imagine that as i work my way closer to the center i am going to want increase the weight of fiberglass (s-glass not carbon preferably for price) and have some carbon tow going from tip to root every couple inches or so with some extra from about the midpoint to root. But this is all just guessing. Do Would it be better to have physical spars inside the wing or even do both? I just don't have any knowledge on how these big wings are made to take the stresses of flight. So any tips or links would be helpful, thanks. This is all super early build planning. I haven't even decided on airfoil yet. My go to is usually mh32 or pw51. Also been watching videos on carbon joiner spar construction techniques.


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If looking for an engineered solution I would need more data. If looking for a general schedule I'd glass the whole wing with 2 oz glass. (If looking for more speed and durrability I go up to 4 oz glass) Then I'd make a "C" section reinforcement LE with 2 oz glass and add layers like a leaf spring going towards the center section. Each layer being about 15% to 20% shorter in span than the pervious layer. At about the 25% span point I'd make one of these layer full cord. I'd also use a hard stiff an epoxy as you can find. (Don't forget to make the first maybe more "C" LE layup on a 45° bias).

I generally would NOT use spars and shear webs. But I would use spars and load spreaders for the wing joiner system. I would try to make the wing 3 piece This would change the lay up somewhat.

Again as I don't know the weight, wing area, profile thickness, and speed I'm Just SWAG it here.
 
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No this is great Konrad, I'm not looking to make the perfect plane just a "good enough" flying one and learn what I can from the process. The information you gave me is 100% more than I had this morning.
I'm still completely happy to just see anything I make up in the air
 
If the original 3 m one had obechi skins then I'd go with the my lighter lay ups in glass.
 
I have been wanting to get my hands on obechi for a while, just can't seem to find it anywhere for even close to a reasonable price. ill probably go with 4oz s-glass on this build
 
I don't know that there is anything magical about obechi. I get my hardwood veneers from MacBeath hardwoods. The roll I have is 48" Black Oak. Try to get a veneer without backing. Backing is a light cloth that just seems to soak up glue. It might be what one wants in making furniture but the added glue is not what we want in our toys.
https://www.macbeath.com

I'd like to encourage you to work on a smaller scale when learning what's what. There is a lot to learn about structure, twist and profiles for a flying wing. A 2m to 3m project might be a bit more practical and manageable as you gain the skill sets you want.
 
4 oz cloth will add a lot of durability to the wing. I like to use lighter cloth in more layers as it allows for more flexability (custom fitting the layup to the demands). I like to make a "heavy "C" section LE to control the wing flex. Also the added glass to the leading edge adds durability in the way of a tougher LE to deal with the bush and branches I always hit. With a heavy LE I don't need as much structure aft of the 30% point.
 
I have a question about the wing joiners and the sleeves they slip into that are installed in the wings. Are the sleeves added before bagging/sheeting a wing or do you dig out that area afterwards and glue it into place?
 
I have a question about the wing joiners and the sleeves they slip into that are installed in the wings. Are the sleeves added before bagging/sheeting a wing or do you dig out that area afterwards and glue it into place?

Always, put everything that you can in first Nate.

I first did this in 1977 - do everything - spars, joiner boxes, fabric hinges etc etc first then bag the lot. I can tell you a way to get a really nice finish too if you want. Its really not hard.

For joiners you can use round carbon tubes/rods as there are lot of those available that fit each other - Aloft has many kinds.
For 4m you'd need at least 20mm and maybe larger and you'd need some incidence (I know there is none) pegs - use smaller maybe 6mm carbon rods/tubes.
Put the joiner as close as you can get to the estimated CG then it can also be changed for a metal bar or metal tube to act as ballast. Ballast can also go inside the round carbon wing joiner. With highly swept designs this can be hard to do but from what you seem to be thinking, the wing won't have any exaggerated sweep.

Trial assemble and check for alignment all the parts with the joiners and incidence pins first before bagging: left wing, fuselage, right wing.

For the design its best if you can make the wing swept forwards a little, or backwards - just as you have drawn it right now, maybe a little more? - this might only mean making the wing max thickness go backwards or forwards a bit. If you do that you will separate the MAC and the CG and then you won't have so much trouble with a highly pitch sensitive CG setting. Also you can use aerodynamic washout by making the tips symmetrical or close to that. Then it wont be quite as ready to suddenly do things that you don't want it to do. Whatever you do dont be tempted to put the fins on the tips. It will kill all your performance. Make a largish fin in the normal place on the back of the fuselage and make it as far back as possible - it will work well.

For looks its a good idea to mount the wing so that at zero, the nose of the fuselage is pointing down slightly - that gives a nice "predatory" look when the model is flying.

Let me know if you need any more advice.

Cheers,

Doc.
 
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Always, put everything that you can in first Nate.

I first did this in 1977 - do everything - spars, joiner boxes, fabric hinges etc etc first then bag the lot. I can tell you a way to get a really nice finish too if you want. Its really not hard.

For joiners you can use round carbon tubes/rods as there are lot of those available that fit each other - Aloft has many kinds.
For 4m you'd need at least 20mm and maybe larger and you'd need some incidence (I know there is none) pegs - use smaller maybe 6mm carbon rods/tubes.
Put the joiner as close as you can get to the estimated CG then it can also be changed for a metal bar or metal tube to act as ballast. Ballast can also go inside the round carbon wing joiner. With highly swept designs this can be hard to do but from what you seem to be thinking, the wing won't have any exaggerated sweep.

Trial assemble and check for alignment all the parts with the joiners and incidence pins first before bagging: left wing, fuselage, right wing.

For the design its best if you can make the wing swept forwards a little, or backwards - just as you have drawn it right now, maybe a little more? - this might only mean making the wing max thickness go backwards or forwards a bit. If you do that you will separate the MAC and the CG and then you won't have so much trouble with a highly pitch sensitive CG setting. Also you can use aerodynamic washout by making the tips symmetrical or close to that. Then it wont be quite as ready to suddenly do things that you don't want it to do. Whatever you do dont be tempted to put the fins on the tips. It will kill all your performance. Make a largish fin in the normal place on the back of the fuselage and make it as far back as possible - it will work well.

For looks its a good idea to mount the wing so that at zero, the nose of the fuselage is pointing down slightly - that gives a nice "predatory" look when the model is flying.

Let me know if you need any more advice.

Cheers,

Doc.

Just looked at the drawing again - might be a good idea to mess about with the tips - curve them back a little bit maybe - right now you could have some unwelcome things happening with those squarish tips. Its OK on an aerobatic model where the wing is changing its position several times per second, but on a big high A/R wing in soaring/thermaling flight it could be a bit of a nuisance.

Doc.
 
Thank you doc. Had a tooth pulled today so a little out of it. I will reread it a few times tomorrow though for sure. Adding a little bit of sweep is easy. The Carbon rod joiners is what i did in my big 8 ft zagi so will do that again. How far do you recommend the tubes go into each wing? Thanks for the tip about ballast in the joiner, that makes a sense and will save a lot of time adding other spots.
 
Thank you doc. Had a tooth pulled today so a little out of it. I will reread it a few times tomorrow though for sure. Adding a little bit of sweep is easy. The Carbon rod joiners is what i did in my big 8 ft zagi so will do that again. How far do you recommend the tubes go into each wing? Thanks for the tip about ballast in the joiner, that makes a sense and will save a lot of time adding other spots.
Thank you doc. Had a tooth pulled today so a little out of it. I will reread it a few times tomorrow though for sure. Adding a little bit of sweep is easy. The Carbon rod joiners is what i did in my big 8 ft zagi so will do that again. How far do you recommend the tubes go into each wing? Thanks for the tip about ballast in the joiner, that makes a sense and will save a lot of time adding other spots.

Sorry to hear about the tooth Nate.

For the spar I'd make it really simple:

1. Use whatever joiners you like and make the internal wing box or tube to suit them. Fill in any space above or below the joiner with vertical grain balsa.
2. Then bond the tube or box onto a full (wing core) depth spar made from 2 (tapered to fin along the wing core length) pieces of good 3/32" ply with vertical UD carbon sandwiched/epoxied/pressed in between. You can taper the plies along the length of you want so as to taper the compression/tension resistance.
3. Cut the wing foam along its length to let the spar in - spar is not very thick so no need to actually remove foam except where the joiner box goes.
4. The alignment or incidence pins only need to go into an extra piece of ply let into the wing root.
5. Finish it all with a nice 1/8" ply root rib and Bob's your Father's brother.
6. Depending on what UD carbon you have, can get, or even if you want to use it - make top and bottom spar caps tapering from about 2" at the root rip to about 1" at the tips.
7. You can layer three plies of UD carbon spar capping you want: 1 @ 30%, 1 @ 60%, 1 @ full-length. Note that the shorter ones are applied first.

If you want to be belt and braces you can also add a shorter spar of the same construction in front of the wing joiner or behind it.

Let me know if any of that is not clear - then once you have it down in your head - or whatever variable you like to make of it, we can talk about a really nice finish out of the bag.

For the wing tips you want to try to direct the isobars coming off the wingtips to where you want them to go, and not anywhere that the pressure is lowest - which is what they will try to do. So anything a bit rounded would be good - something like the pics attached here: Actually the blue/orange/white might be the most effective. Also its a good idea to stop the ailerons/elevons a good 4" away from the tips.
I'm happy to say more and more people are starting to realise that full length ailerons are not a really good example of clear thinking on a model sailplane design.

Cheers,

Doc.
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Thanks, i really appreciate the comments. I will incorporate some of this into my design and come back with more questions. Again i'm not trying to make the perfect plane, just the next thing i'm making a little better than previous one. Im sure some of this i wont listen to and later wish i had lol. Look forward to meeting you at Sunset this year.
 
Thanks, i really appreciate the comments. I will incorporate some of this into my design and come back with more questions. Again i'm not trying to make the perfect plane, just the next thing i'm making a little better than previous one. Im sure some of this i wont listen to and later wish i had lol. Look forward to meeting you at Sunset this year.

Nate if you go with something like the pics you posted you'll be golden. Just do the tips a bit better. This one has pretty much everything you need but dont forget the dihedral on the 4M plane.

Good luck and let us know if you need more help.

Doc.
 
I have access to some old-school Glasflugel 604, 144" wings. 45 year old 'undercamber' profile and all... Maybe I should convert them to something like you will be building?
 
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